www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Byzantine Village II

I don't see this as abandoning ship as much as going forth to spread the word. Starting a college, perhaps monastery, and living among brothers and sisters of the faith would be a good thing in my opinion. You do make a good point to continue to try to better our own parishes instead of only daydreaming to one day move and build a new one.

A FURTHER THOUGHT: One of the 'benefits' bestowed upon the Eastern Churches is the Oriental Code. I gather that it is contemplated that the "village" welcome faithful from various "ecclesiae sui juris" of the Byzantine spirtual tradition (and possibly from Byzantine communities that do not enjoy that status but are under the jurisdiction of a local Latin/Roman hierarch. I gather also that this new ecclesial community would be served by a priest (and deacon?) from one or another such "ecj's". Given the intricacies of "canonical jurisdiction" under the Code, and the apparent intent that members of the "village" retain their ecclesial affiliation and not transfer to a new canonical jurisdiction, those wishing to explore this possibility would do well to consult with a reliable canonist who could advise on any steps required in connection with administration of the Sacred Mysteries (particularly the Mysteries of Initiation and celebration of the Mystery of Holy Crowning).

Tim,

That is a real issue that will need to be addressed. I don't think it is a problematic issue. The one point I'd think would be the most problematic is Holy Orders, as that would take some hoop-jumping or church-changing. With a sympathetic bishop, I'm sure even that could be properly addressed. Anyone else could be ministered to by a priest of any of the churches. Children would follow the jurisdictions of their parents, so only new converts would have potential issues regarding the Mysteries of Initiation. For them, I would assume they would follow the jurisdiction of the actual church and priest of the parish they entered the church through, just as most any other.

It is an administrative issue that will require attention, but not fretting. (Edited to say that I am not saying you are fretting, just that I am not either.)

Any Catholic may receive the Sacraments in any valid ritual tradition of the Catholic Church. That is quite simple. As has been pointed out, Holy Orders may require additional considerations regarding these sorts of canonical issues. But that is all cart before the horse, so to speak. Absolutely no canonist needs to be consulted for Greek Catholics to gather and pray the traditional riches of the Constantinopolitan liturgical tradition, nor to form Christian community - rather that is encouraged by the Church.

All of our discussions with the village are in the realm of the discussion of ideas and longing for Christian community - and the tranfiguring potential such a community has united in the grace of the Most Holy Trinity. Quite a simple proposition, and certainly no need for "canonical complexity" at this point - that is somewhat of an "un-Byzantine" way to start things off, actually. Are/were you by chance Latin?

The link was on spiritdaily.com

A Catholic vision for farm and town

http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives2/2007c/070607/070607z.htm

My experience as a Ukrainian Greco-Catholic of over 40 years, 'transplanted' for some time now into a Ruthenian Byzantine parish, is somewhat at odds with the hopeful and commendably flexible view of "Diak". As I said in my earlier posting, the Code has been given to us Easterners by Rome and, at least among Ruthenians in this country, there seems to be little appetite for questioning it or engaging in refined efforts to interpret its language flexibly. It might be suggested that, with the kindest of intentions to be sure, the Code has 'balkanized' the Eastern Churches and created a significant obstacle to cross-ritual/cross-ecclesial cooperation, thus assuring continuing Roman dominance of the Eastern Churches, at least outside their traditional territories.

The facts are these: When approaching our Ruthenian Byzantine pastor, fairly recently, regarding the possibility of our child's receiving the Mysteries of Initiation: IN his parish which we had been attending for some years, and FROM him who was our spiritual father, we were told that he could not do this without our formally applying for and being granted a "transfer of canonical jurisdiction" to the Ruthenian Metropolitan Church sui juris (the new term the Eastern Code usesfor the process that used to be called "change of rite").

The only alternative our pastor could suggest was to invite the pastor of a nearby UGC parish thatr we had not attended in years to celebrate the Mysteries in our parish church as a "guest". My understanding was that our pastor confirmed his view (which, to be fair, he seemed to be expressing with great reluctance) with appropriate authorities in the Metropolia.

This experience with our child led to us taking her to a UGC church some hundreds of miles away where we at least knew the pastor from his seminary days, as well as some of the parshioners.

My impression is that BV II is envisioned as a community of faithful who share the Byzantine spiritual tradition but are canonically members of various Eastern Catholic Churches sui juris. My impression also is that some of them might be expected to produce offspring or to adopt children. I believe it may take more than a parish priest with a casual attitude towards the Eastern Code (and the unlikely development of a similar attitude among the affected Eastern hierarchs) to get over the problems that will arise when the first candidate is presented for Baptism/Chrismation/Eucharist who is not of the same "church" as the parish priest. I would not be surprised to find similar issues arising regarding the celebration of Holy Matrimony. As "Diak" recognized, Sacred Orders could be another problem area.

If I have misconstrued the BV II idea, and it amounts to nothing more than an informal gathering of Byzantines of various jurisdictions for worship, then I can understand Diak's comment.

I don't want this thread to become waylayed by hyperparticular canonical concerns that may never arise, and if they ever do will be hopefully dealt with in a sensible manner. I personally have been around Greek Catholic parishes over 20 years, had priests of another church baptize a child because we could not travel to our own due to distance, and never have had a problem, including having assistance from bi-ritual priests.

To put this to rest and restore the topic flow, I will say a few things. This seems quite strange - first of all why one would not have the baptism in their own church sui iuris if you have a parish in your area. Otherwise there should have been no serious impediment for your child to receive the Sacraments of Initiation in that situation. One does not have to belong to a Church sui iuris to receive the Sacraments (outside of Holy Orders) in that church sui iuris. If that is the case a priest would not give communion to anyone except those in "his church" to be consistent.

Canon 678 of the Eastern Code says: There is no statement of having to change churches; only of asking permission from the pastor of the church you belong to.

If there is no other Greek Catholic church of your eparchy within a reasonable distance he can certainly baptize through economia; you remain in the church of your origin. If there is a Greek Catholic church of your own eparchy within the area then that is probably where you should have the baptism.

Again, I think any such very specific canonical concern is not relevant to this discussion; which is to begin the discussion of the idea of a village; nor do any of the particular clergy I know of that may be interested in this idea have any of the canonical "hang-ups" that you have expressed as a concern. Casual - not at all before the dread Mysteries, but always at the service of our Lord through economia as well, which is the "Byzantine way".

By the way, I am a bit puzzled, perhaps you can clear it up. Previously on this Forum you had identified yourself as "Timothy, the Orthodox Reader", but you say here you have been a "Ukrainian Greco-Catholic of over 40 years". Thanks for the clarification.

bumpadeedoodaa

LOL !

Dear Wondering ,

I don't think a Byzantine Village like we describe --with every tradition and jurisidction under the sun and good food too-- will ever really exist. The exception is in places which received immigrants from all the different countries where those different jurisdictions and customs arose. To the best of my knowledge, that means Pittsburgh, PA, USA and some other cities with lots of immigrants from Eastern Europe. We could try to start a community out in the country to live fully the Gospel --sort of like, the Byzantine Amish?-- but we would just be creating a new tradition. It is fun to think about, though. Especially the blueberry pierogies with butter . . . mmmmmmm.

-- John

It actually could happen--there would just have to be enough people serious enough to make things happen. A large grant from Bill Gates wouldn't help, either.

But I'm going to have to tell you--sweet cabbbage or lekvar pirohi are the only way to go!

Tim

Well, it turns out I'm home alone this evening. We could start the Byzantine village with hamburgers I'm cooking on the grill and my special salad: basically, an Italian salad with a bit of cloves and honey added. It actually tastes good too . . . ;-) C'mon over and bring your favorite dish for a summertime cookout, namely . . . [your reply].

-- John

John,
I'll add some sweet grilled corn on the cob, nice and fat sweet potato french fries, grilled asparagus marinated in Italian dressing, and some homemade vanilla ice cream.

Ready for that Village to be a reality now?

I don't know, my wife and I had bruschetta and grilled lamb kabobs. Not exactly Ruthenian, but it sure was good! If we can have a diversity of faiths, we can certainly have a diversity of food to go along with it!

happy eating

Tim

An interesting Catholic village concept:

http://sanmiguelneighborhood.com/index.php

http://sanmiguelneighborhood.com/modules.php?name=Documents&doc=Doc4.pdf

Gordo

How about Minnesota? UP Michigan?

My husband and I are fixing up our home to sell b/c we are planning on moving to buy land for simple living/homesteading. We love the idea of a "village" and would love to find something like it, where there is snow!