www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall converting to Christianity in Egypt

Is conversion to Christianity from Islam now allowed in Egypt? The traditional Muslim view is that conversion from Islam to another religion is a crime that should be punished, even by death. However, a recent statement of the Grand Mufti of Egypt seems to allow conversion from Islam to another religion. Yet, a case that seeks to rely on the Mufti's statement shows that more traditional Muslim attitudes still prevail.


Recently (on or about 24 July 2007), the Grand Mufti of Egypt wrote:
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070725/28607_Egypt's_Top_Religious_Advisor_OKs_Muslims_Leaving_Islam.htm



One Egyptian man has decided to test this policy by registering his conversion from Islam to Christianity with the Egyptian government. So far, the uproar and death threats have been sufficiently intense to scare off the man's first lawyer and to give pause to his second attorney.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/11/AR2007081100745.html



Still, I wonder. Is the Mufti's recent statement merely an attempt to look good in front of the West, or is there a genuine change of policy on religious conversions in Egypt?

-- John

Well - seeking an answer for that isn't so hard.

Law or no Law, Mufti or no Mufti, a Muslim converting to Christianity in any Arab country will soon find himself threatened by death or already dead.

Gladly I personally know 2 converted Christians who are under the threat (had to change their identity...) and I live in Israel where Islam tends to be more tolerant (needless to mention how things will go in Egypt)

Conversion to Christianity is highly dangerous to the health of any Muslim who lives in Egypt and proposes to go on living in Egypt. Archbishop Elias Zoghy, who served as Greek-Catholic Patriarchal Vicar-Bishop in Cairo for many years once mentioned to me that in all those years he had baptized thee (3) Muslims, each of which had a one-way ticket to leave the country, a visa for a specific Christian country, a work permit for that country, and no intention of ever returning to Egypt, not even for a visit.

Put down, Oh Lord, the tyrranny of the Hagarenes and restore the reign of Christian Kings!

Fr. Serge

Amen

In contrast to the pagan Roman Empire, in which the persecution of Christians was mostly the government's concern (along with some wealthy people who couldn't stand the egalitarian views of the Christians), Islamic countries seem to have a solidarity among their citizens--admirable in its own way, I guess--by which almost any citizen would gladly carry out a death sentence against someone guilty of a capital offense under Islamic law.

I often think that one reason God allowed Islam to arise is to serve as a mirror by which we Christians can look at ourselves. We can see their devotion to daily prayers, for example, and reflect on our own prayer life; we can also look at their rigid legalism and reflect on how all too often we can be just as rigid.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

I don't know whether or not God allows Islam. But I suspect that because we are Christians we have never been capable of totally eliminating those who threaten our existence.

Well Islamic countries are not that neutral. First, many will ban any Christian missionary work and have outlawed conversion to Christianity to begin with. Also, these Islamic governments do not put any efforts to protect their newly converted Christin citizens, who are still citizens and have the right to be protected by their government. In addition to all that, these government do not apply the Islamic law (death to those who kill) on those who kill converted Christians.

Maybe I misunderstood the point here, or the definition of "solidarity," but Islamic countries are not as innocent as hey would like the world to see them.

I am under the impression, though my Coptic friend is not too talkative on this subject, that there are business restrictions on Christians in Egypt. Also I heard that their identification cards indicate that they are Christians and they are pressured, if not obliged by the economy, to live in certain communities.

I say this is an impression, does anybody here know whether it is true?

Terry

It certainly is true - and there is more where that came from!

Fr. Serge

Christians aren't obliged to live in certain communities in Egypt.

They are, however, openly discriminated against in finding work, doing business, and in government services. When applying for a job, you are often asked your father's name (if your first name is not obviously Muslim or Christian), and if that is not decisive, then you'll be asked your religion. Needless to say, Christians are normally not hired by Muslims.

My wife even had to have my details added into her passport, so that we might legally share a room in a hotel. And we were asked to show this, each time we went on holidays out of Cairo. This same requirement is not made of Muslims.

The Egyptian identity card (biTaqa) states one's religion. This of course makes you open to all sorts of harrassment and discrimination from the police, etc.

Amen and Amen.
Much Love,
Jonn

No evil can exist except that God allows it. As Jesus told Pilate, "You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above." (Jn. 19:11)


Peace,
Deacon Richard

It was my understanding that conversion to Christianity was a capital offense under Islamic law.

This is more or less what I was trying to say: the government doesn't need to persecute Christians, just stand back and let the people do it for them!

This is a good point, but doesn't the Quranic prohibition of murder only apply if the victim is a Muslim? It was my understanding that killing an infidel--or better yet, an apostate--is seen as a virtuous act.

I wasn't suggesting that the Islamic countries were innocent, only that their social cohesiveness and zeal for their faith would be admirable if it were not so misguided.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

My understanding is that once the Christians came into power in Spain Christians who converted to Islam were also put to death.

I think anytime a religion is viewed as a threat death threats are liberally thrown about.

There is much to learn from Islam, and at one time in history Christians were just as zealous;prayers and psalms were on the tip of everyone's tongues, and there was no such thing as an atheist, but the results were not always pretty or Christian.

There is a difference between what was done centuries ago, and what is being done right now, this minute. The persecution of the Old-Ritualists under Nicholas I and Alexander II of Russia (aided and abetted by Metropolitan Philaret of Moscow) was a disgrace, but the ongoing persecution of Christians in certain countries today requires our attention more urgently.

Fr. Serge

I keep thinking about the fate of the Christian Armenians.

and don't foget thier fate, despite the fact that the rest of the West has conveniently done so. go solar, go nuclear and tell the moon god worshipping Saracens what to do with their oil.
Much Love,
Jonn

Indigo, I would like to charitably suggest that you do some research on the Spanish Inquisition.

The Church could not execute anyone. What the Inquisition did was to try those accused of heresy. This was necessary because there were people who falsely converted to the Catholic faith while working to undermine it, and Queen Isabella would have none of it. At one point, Queen Isabella did expel the remaining Moors from Spain - after a revolt that took place subsequent to the completion of the Reconquest.