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Dear Matthew,

Is it possible for an Orthodox Christian to be free of error in this regard?

In other words, is a pope not needed for an Orthodox Christian because he or she is infallible by virtue of being Orthodox?

Alex

Dear Alex,

I don't think any human being is infallible, however I don't think I was wrong in my prior post, I have been wrong in the past I'm sure. A Supreme Pontiff is not needed for an Orthodox Christian because the Papacy is considered to be in error by the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church is not in theological error, that is my firm belief. One error can lead to another it seems on occasion even a correction by means of humility. Now this humility is a virtue for both east and west, can we go with the more humble the person is the likely he or she is to be free from error. Now the throne of Papal Supremacy is another source of division as are the Eastern Catholics in Communion with Rome, is that because so many Orthodox Saint's lacked discernment and the intellectual or spiritual disposition to accept such notions. When something that is unacceptable to the Orthodox it is considered by some to be acceptable it is no longer Orthodox for it is not in agreement with what the Orthodox Church believes to be true. To those that except these notions confusion is the result. Hence we can see examples of such notions in some writings here and there. Upon arrival at the tower of Babel you can notice many things. There is a difference from being in the tower of Babel being around it or shouting from it. Lest I should be found to be a builder of the aforementioned tower I think it is best that I put on some ear muffs from time to time. Now you might not find it comfortable to argue that more one post's the more one babbles so allow me to suggest that such a conclusion would be contingent upon the content and context of the post's. It should come as no surprise that all those who are Eastern Catholics in communion with Rome are listened to by some Orthodox Christians with patience and sometimes bewilderment. Having said that Alex, continue on for many of your post's are of some avail, sometimes for others sometimes for you. I don't mean to be rude or unloving you know, just more charitable. It's the Peter Principle thing again, I guess I'm getting tired of it.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Matthew:

Who is Orthodox?

Do you consider the ROC-MP, or the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, or the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (all sides), or the EP, Orthodox?

How about the ROCie or the ROAC? And the HOCNA?

Or, is it only the ROCOR?

Amado

Dear Matthew and Amado,

You are two people I admire and love very much.

I hope you are able to watch my show tonight!

Alex

Dear Alex,

I only watch TV when the Pope is on, however I'll make an singular exception tonight.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Matthew,

Your post 3 posts above makes me dizzy. Rather circular in argument. Is it a joke? Is it sarcasm?

It reminds me of a conversation I had with a Church of Christ minister who insisted that his was the only real Church because of its name. Fascinating.

Dan L

It's quite interesting to note, that the first Christian saints would enter pagan temples and they would either fall down, or the 'demon' god within it, would break. The temples that didn't fall became churches...so what's wrong with re-taking the church at Fatima after the Hindu's leave.

Allowing the Hindu's to come though, was a good idea, after all the Greek world in which Saint Paul wandered, was quite similar to it in beliefs. We've incorporated so many of those Greek pagan customs and holidays into Christianity, so why not try to do the same with the Hindu's. Why not incorporate their traditions and customs into a very special form of Indian Christianity...and kick out the demon gods.

Let's pray for it, or rather, let's pray to Mother Theresa for the conversion of India. You know, it will happen. Places never did convert during the life of a martyr and saint. The conversion usually came gradually after their death.

Zenovia

Dear Matthew,

As an Orthodox, I can only say, what about the Catholic saints? So many of them lauded their popes. So taking these things into account, and accepting both, Catholic and Orthodox as being true saints, we have to say that our Lord's ways are beyond the comprehension of many men. Better yet, it only proves that the Kingdom of God is within us, not in any outward manifestation of our faith.

Zenovia

David,

Firstly, welcome back from retreat . Hope that it was spiritually rewarding for you.

Although it was pulled, it was pulled because of copyright issues. The accompanying statement explains that the "rites" posted are not official rites of the ECUSA, but intended to contribute to or provoke discussion. While I am extremely doubtful that it is the intent of ECUSA to branch out into idol worship, I do think it (or at least some of its constituent bodies, some of its parishes, and some of its hierarchs) has been rolling rather quickly down a slippery slope, away from its historical roots.

That said, as was already pointed out, the Latin Catholic Church has certainly got its own set of problems. I don't want to get into the Fatima issue again because it brings back memories of some very nasty forum fights here with no resolution ever had. The waters there are so murky that it has historically been almost impossible to determine what really transpired, who authorized what, and what action was taken afterwards. Unquestionably, both of the cited news sources (that for the ECUSA story and that for the Fatima story) have agendas - neither would qualify as an unbiased news source in the mind of a high school journalist who took the time to inquire into their religious politics.

If you want to see chaos in the Latin Church, you don't have to travel to Fatima; try Minneapolis-St. Paul, where St. Joan of Arc parish [stjoan.com] , a hot-spot of controversy for years, has pushed the envelope to the point where a
Directive From Rome Causes Concern [stjoan.com] - Rome has actually stepped in and mandated that the local Ordinary take action.

BUT, as Eastern Catholics and Orthodox, we cannot sit smugly by and dismiss these events in ECUSA or the Latin Church, taking comfort in our own righteousness and feeling secure from any such foolishness in our own temples. Type the words Catholic or Orthodox, or better yet, both together, into any search engine. In addition to thousands of citations to valid, canonical, and theologically sound websites, you will acquire links to any number of strange religious entities - many of which had their origins in our own Churches. The "Living Church", Antoine Aneed's Byzantine American Catholic Church (or any of its myriad other names), HOCNA, only a few of the many. The same type of theologically incoherent, divisive, schismatic, and heretical shenanigans that we decry in others are only as far from our doorsteps as our prayers, for the continued spiritual well-being and stability of our Churches, carry. Whatever each of us believes as to which of us, Catholic or Orthodox, is right, we need to pray and pray hard for our own Church and the Churches of our counterparts, that they - and the truth that they represent - will prevail in a world that is increasingly taken with faddish approaches to religion.

Many years,

Neil

Neill,

Have you been frequenting the Novus Ordo Watch Archive? Interesting, isn't it...

Logos Teen

To All,

Does the Latin Church do ANYTHING right?

Last Sunday's gospel in the Latin Church was LUKE 18:9-14. I humbly ask that we all read it.

Bill

Bill- the "Latin Church" does a lot of things right; it has held the line on contraception, for example. It is easy for Byzantines to get self-righteous, as it is always easier for a relatively small body to resist error than for a huge one. Note that 98% of Catholics are of the Latin rite. The Eastern rites are such a minority that most Latins are unaware of us, which of course drives us crazy, but I would submit that if we were of comparable size we would have similar, though not identical, problems.
-Daniel, the former and non-hostile Latin

"Although it was pulled, it was pulled because of copyright issues."

Which is a bunch of BS. The Episcopal minister who contributed the pagan rite is the author of the pagan book from which it was adapted, she is a druid on her days off. They got caught, the faithful Episcopalians are having a fit and now the women's ministries people are peddling a lot of nonsense to get out of hot water. This ECUSA office of women's ministries are also the same people who proudly support "March for Women's Lives" aka Churches for Abortion March.

http://www.dfms.org/41685_37993_ENG_HTM.htm

Dear Bill,

I have read your reference to Luke 18:9-14.

There is also a parallel trap we can all fall into if we judge the Pharisee. Here is an link that is a short but very good read on the above.

http://www.monachos.net/great_lent/publican_pharisee.shtml

Yes, Bill the Latin Rite does something's right it
nurtures and frequently brings forth to our attention very many very good hearted people like you.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Garrett,

I don't even know what that is - thank God, I think. No, St Joan of Arc is pretty famous and has been for a long time. I saw a brief news clip about this latest action and went looking to see what was up.

Many years,

Neil