www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News ecumenical patriarch

Dear Friends,

To paraphrase a famous quote, "The history of all hitherto existing Churches is a history of tension between religious and national identities."

It is impossible to separate the two, but there is always the challenge of trying to keep them in their separate and proper place.

Alex

It is also very obvious that Patriarch Bartholomew is criticized, most of all because of his approach to the Roman Catholic Church and its Pope John Paul II and the general dialogues beuween these Churches, but most of these criticisms are not well proved. (Some publications also blamed the EP for the visit of John Paul II to Greece, ignoring that he was invited by the Greek Auticephalous Church and the EP had nothing to do with that).

Other jurisdictions have been very critical of the Catgolic-Orthodox dialogue, but what about the Orthodox participation in the neo-protestant World Council of Churches? and the "ecumenical" meetings with Anglicans? If in fact from an orthodox perspective the protestants hold graver errors than the latins. Why aren't these events condemned? Why are the Old Calendar jurisdictions so critical of the dialogues wihth the RC but remain silent about the contacts with neo-protestant religions?

Much of the criticism of Patriarch Bartholmeos is not because he talks to the Catholic Church, but because he participates in worship with the Ctholic Church. According to Orthodox understanding, this can only happen between Christians and full communon with each other. Otherwise it is uncanonical and forbidden.

With love in Christ,
Mark, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

It is at times like these that I wish that I HAD had seminary training!

But have not the anathemas been lifted between Rome and Constantinople?

And if they have, does not this bring the two Churches into closer proximity, although not complete communion?

And did not the theologians of the Oriental/Eastern Orthodox Commission prayed together at their deliberations?

I can see Intercommunion between Churches that are not yet one as a breaking of the canons and a sin.

But praying together?

Forgive this ignorant, yet loving, soul!

Alex

Who did Patriarch Demetrios ask before he lifted the anethema? Did he do so on behalf of the Orthodox Oecumene? No.

As we have discussed before, the original anethema was issued by the patriarch of Constantinople locally, so the issue is not clear cut. However, the passage of time and the growing theological rift between Rome and the East have made the issue far more complicated than in 1054.
It is such a key issue that it should surely have called for a synod to discuss the matter.

Regarding the joint prayer with the non-Chalecdonians, yes this has happened, but strictly speaking it should not. We may well deliberate the strictness of the canons, but that is how they stand. Again, there may be a difference between the word and the spirit when taken in context. It is some of the joint services in St Peter's - starting jointly, parting for the liturgy of the faithful and rejoining for the post-communion that caused major dismay, not only in Orthodox, but also in traditionalist Catholic circles.

Spasi Khristos -
Mar, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

Forgive me, if I am annoying you!

As a result of my ignorance and darkened spiritual state, I am unsure about why the Esphigmenite Monks would not wish communion with the EP.

If they consider him a heretic, then, yes, absolutely they should not have anything to do with him.

If they do not agree with his interpretation of the canons, is this grounds for breaking communion with him, or removing him from the diptychs? That seems to me, ignorant and lost though I may be, to be a severe act that declares the EP cut off from the Church - is this not correct?

To remove someone from the diptychs is a serious act and it cannot be taken likely.

The traditionalist Catholics you mention would be upset if the Pope even LOOKED in the direction of anyone who was Orthodox (and they like to refer to "Orthodox Churches"), let alone prayed with them, as the Orthodox, as we all know, are hopelessly and invincibly ignorant and lost in their schisms from the one true Faith .

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

The Lord bless you Alex.

No you are not annoying me in the least!
I simply think that certain topics break down bridges instead of building them.

I think we need to be alittle more cautious at times. I would never dare venture into certain topics because I am not familiar with them. I think the Esphigmenou topic is a non-starter because, as Francisco points out, we approach with very different mentalities. Nobody should underestimate these differences. This is one of our problems. It is to an extent a barrier between the Eastern Orthodox and the non-Chaledonians. If we could break down our mental barriers, or at least try to understand oneanother's reasoning we might begin to break down more troublesome barriers.

I always appreciate your objectivity and fairness.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

I am unworthy of your blessing and your tolerance!

We were greeting our bishops last night for New Year's and I met a Ukrainian Catholic Studite Monk, Ieromonk Taras, who told me he had visited the Old Rite Orthodox at Bila Krinitsa in Ukraine.

He said he was much inspired by their piety and zeal and had adopted certain of their practices in his spiritual life.

As you know, we have our own "Bila Krinitsa" on this forum with Diak as our internet Archimandrite leading us in enthusiasm for the Old Rite!

Kissing your right hand, I again implore you blessing (and implore the Administrator to close down this thread),

Alex

Dear Alex -

This is very interesting. How was he treated? Old Believers are strange creatures... capable of warmth and frostiness with no rational explination. The Belayakrinitsa soglasie is very hardline at the moment- and very nationalistic - and yet there are still acts of great kindness and tolerance.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

Yes, Father Taras told me he visited Bila Krinitsa with a Roman Catholic bishop, no less and both were treated VERY well.

As a matter of fact, and if Father Taras isn't lying , the Old Believers told their RC visitor that, in him, they greet "Old Rome."

I guess as long as you're "Old" that's O.K.

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex
old Believer

Remie:

I wish to correct your grossly inaccurate post:

The Greek Orthodox Church never intended to offer a formal invitation to Pope John Paul II for his visit to Greece.

It was the President of Greece, on behalf of the State and of the civilian government, who issued the formal invitation. Only then that the Holy Synod of the GOC reluctantly chimed in.

Here's that part of the news story:

The Pope's visit to Greece, Syria, and Malta, as a re-enactment of the journey of St. Paul through this region, just happened in May 2001.

Misrepresenting certain aspects surrounding the pilgrimage of the Pope is uncalled for.

AmdG

Dear Amado,

Magandang Hapon!

Well, I don't think it was the intention of the poster to do that . . .

When the Pope was in the Greek world, he began to apologize for centuries of this and that. The Greek hierarchs were pleasantly shocked and one of them put his arm under the Pope's and allowed himself to be used as a "papal crutch."

I think that warmer relations with the Greeks are possible and that Rome knows what needs to be done.

I don't.

But Rome does . . .

Alex

Dear Brethren,

I would like you to consider the difference between "prayer" and "worship" and how it relates to the heads of various Churches when they meet together. It is my hope that we would not be too quick to condemn people for praying together.

I would find it absurd if two leaders of two Churches came to discuss ways of achieving unity and failed to begin and end each meeting with a prayer. To be correct, let each one offer an opening and a closing prayer of his own choosing. Failing to pray would be especially absurd if they really believed that there was some realistic long term chance for unity. In other words, the very fact that they are meeting should be because they view each other as "close" in theology, soteriology, etc. The fact that they are so "close" means that it is certainly OK to pray together.

At the same time we would more than likely be outraged if a (western or eastern) Catholic Pope/Patriarch/Archbishop were to sit down to dialogue for unity with a Muslim or Jew and pray with them. This is because we are not in any way "close" with them. Would they be discussing the same God? Would they even be praying to the same God? What would be the point.

However, if a man falls down on the street and is injured severely, we might all call out to God each in our own way, "Oh Lord, help this injured man!" Should we refrain if others who are not in our communion are standing near? Am I condoning the prayer of the other bystander next to me, who is also praying to his or her God, to a different God? And if a (western or eastern) Catholic bishop and a polytheist priestess were the bystanders, shouldn't they both pray to their own respective God for this injured man?

Prayer can be spontaneous and reactive. Worship is different altogether. Worship is planned, deliberate, non-spontaneous and non-reactive. Worship goes on even when the bombs are falling down around us.

They early Church closed "the doors, the doors" and expelled even her own catechumens from the eucharistic offering! Worship reveals the most intimate part of our relationship with God. For those of us who hold the body and blood of the Lord to be present with the offering of bread and wine, it is intimacy of the the greatest and most mystical magnitude.

Prayer is a calling out to God on high. Worship is a mystery of his presence among us.

With love in Christ.

Christ is Born! Happy New Year!
Father, bless!

Father, you mention Patriarch Demetrios as having lifted the anathemas. If I am not mistaken it was Patriarch Athenogoras in 1965 who mutually with Pope Paul VI lifted the anathemas. In my contacts with the Old Believers I have not once been treated with anything other than great kindness and hospitality.

Alex, I am glad you got to meet Father Taras. He is a real gem, an "angel in the flesh". We have been coming to him for counsel for two years or so now. Father Taras is also contemplating starting a new foundation so we need to keep him in our prayers. He is the spiritual father of my wife and two sons. It's a small world after all...

And you are on the money with the Latin traditionalists. Many of them have already anathemitized the Pope for simply saying the Novus Ordo and even speaking to any representatives of other faiths. I can't understand how they can accuse and resist the leadership of the current Pope who is truly a holy pilgrim on earth and who has made tremendous strides to accomodate those traditionalists by creating or restoring several religious orders to strictly say the Tridentine Mass.

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

It is truly amazing how this pontiff is not appreciated by his bishops and faithful through out the world! John Paul II is the most educated
spiritual leader of the Roman Catholic world in our time! He does not put up with heretical trends that some Roman Catholic bishops are trying to mislead their followers. The Roman Church will be at a great crossroad when he is gone. He has the utmost love, respect and concern for his fellow Christian denominations, especially those seperated Eastern Churches. He has a genuine love for the Eastern Churches because his own mother was an Eastern Christian. It just seems, like Christ, "he will not be accepted by his followers" until he is gone. May God grant his faithful servant, John Paul II peace, health and happiness for many, many blessed years!! Na Mnohaja i Blahja L'ita!!

Ung-Certez