www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Patriarch Alexei renews complaint on Catholic "proselytism"

Moscow, Sep. 14, 2007 (CWNews.com) - Russian Orthodox Patriarch Alexei II has repeated his insistence that a meeting with Pope Benedict XVI (bio - news) should only take place after adequate preparation-- and after the Vatican has complied with demands from the Moscow patriarchate to curb Catholic "proselytism" in the historically Orthodox countries of eastern Europe.

Speaking in Moscow, the Orthodox prelate charged that Catholic clergy and religious still maintain "an ultimate goal of proselytism among the Orthodox population" in Russia, the Interfax news service reports. Catholic officials have repeatedly denied such a goal.

Before setting up a meeting with the Pope, Patriarch Alexei said, "those difficulties we have faced since the 1990s should be overcome." Since the fall of the Communist regime, the Moscow patriarchate has complained about the activities of Catholic missionaries in the lands of the former Soviet Union.

Catholic Church leaders explain that missionary workers aim not to convert Orthodox believers, but to attract the vast majority of Russian people who are not currently active in any church. But the Moscow patriarchate takes the stand that the Russian people are Orthodox, even if they do not attend any church servives. On the basis of that position, Patriarch Alexei rejected what he saw as the Catholic belief "that Russia is a missionary field for the Roman Catholic Church."

I hate to break it to His Beatitude, but prior to the revolution, when Russian Orthodoxy was the state religion, the Roman Catholics had an established hierarchy - the Russian Orthodox Church didn't seem to have to much of problem with that then or they would of made the government shut them down. And he should also be reminded that the Russian Orthodox Church has parishes in Italy, in particular Rome, and I have no doubt the priests there have no problem converting Roman Catholics. In my opinion he should be more worried about protestant sects like the baptists and evangelicals then the Catholic Church.

To his credit though, he didn't mention anywhere the Ukrainian Catholic Church had no right to exist like he usually dose...

Oh, heres the interfax article:

Moscow, September 14, Interfax - Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Alexy II has reiterated that he does not rule out meeting Pope Benedict XVI in the future.

"I am often asked about meeting the Pope. I do not rule out that it might happen. But our meeting must be well prepared, and those difficulties we have faced since the 1990s should be overcome," the Patriarch said at a meeting with the Valday International Discussion Club in Moscow.

"The mission of Roman Catholic priests, monks and nuns in Russia had an ultimate goal of proselytism among the Orthodox population," Alexy II said.

We cannot agree with claims by some Roman Catholic officials "that Russia is a missionary field for the Roman Catholic Church," he said.

The Church must provide a moral assessment as to what is happening in the country and worldwide when it comes to economic issues and politics, "especially, when it comes to its people, the history of which was blessed by the Orthodox Church, matches its pastoral care and moral and spiritual upbringing," the patriarch said.

Before the revolution, the Church was almost a governmental body. After the revolution, the Church seceded from the government, "but the government interfered in the Church's life in the most overt manner," Alexy II recalled.

In the early 1990s, totally new relations were established between the government and the Church, "whereby the Church does not interfere into government's affairs, while the government - and I am saying it responsibly - does not interfere into the life of the Church," he said.

Boooooooooooooring. Get your business out of "traditional Catholic" countries like Mexico or pretty much anywhere else in the Western Hemisphere or western/central Europe. Austria would be a prime example.

How is the hypocrisy not evident to these people? Does anyone have a logical answer?

Alexis

He is your namesake!

Patriarch Alexei's position would only be hypocritical if he believed that the Catholic Church was part of the true Church. Obviously, if he believes that only those Churches with which he is in communion are a part of the one true Church, then he wouldn't believe that Catholics have a right to proselytize in Russia any more than Catholics believe that Pentecostals have a right to proselytize in Mexico.

Perhaps he's not hypocritical, just wrong.

Oh Balderdash!

He either just doesn't get it... or just doens't want to see.

Less than 700K Catholics against the state church that is full of priests, monks & seminarians, has history, state support, and the culture behind it.

You know if JP2 of blessed memory, had designs on a "uniate invasion" of Russia, it certainly could have been started.

From around the world it is easy to imagine 1000s of priests and religous mobilized and sent forth - a few dozen Jesuits here, a few dozen Franciscan there, toss in some Dominicans, some Divine Word missionaries, a cadre of Oratorians, a couple of Missionaries of the Poor, toss in some Opus Dei, add a few Miles Jesu members, grab a handful of Legionairies, relieve the over-flowing Benedictines of France of a few members, and relocate some Norbetines, a few extras from the FSSP, some diocesan priests, and a few busloads of newly ordained, rosy-cheeked 20somethings fresh out of the Ukrainian underground and before you know it, you have the makings of a unia and you could be doing land-office business. 4 Million baptists in Russia, you know... Heck, open up a university, and start opening Catholic schools, and they would have filled.

Hey, we all know that there are convents full of little old Fillipino and Italian nuns that can make rosaries faster than you can tie a shoe! Statues of OL of Fatima and scapulars enough for every man woman and child could have flooded the land. Priories, novitiates, seminaries, and other houses of formation could have been filled up. I truly believe more than a few Orthodox priests could have been entreated to enter a unia.

But we didn't. The Pope didn't direct that. Some of us might even be tempted to say placation was the order of the day. How many Ukrainian Catholics were exiled? How many parishes do they have in Russia?

Inconvienant fact #1: Catholics who were exiled into the depths of Russia are still Catholic, they live there now, they deserve priests and parishes. It isn't a Vatican conspiracy. We didn't plant them there as fifth-columnists. Remember who did.

Inconvienant fact #2: There is no "Orthodox gene" in Russian DNA. Holy Osmosis has not set in. The idea that the whole of Russia is Orthodox is blind hubris. Russia is now one of the main producers of child pornography in the world [ecpat.net] 6 out of 10 pregnancies in Russia end in abortion [lifesite.net] The black market is thriving, drugs & HIV infections [rense.com] are worse than ever... This is not a nation that has wholesale turned to Orthodoxy. I wish to God it were, that's for sure. But it isn't.

Inconvienant fact #3: Some Russians - I met two a decade ago in Chicago - have read their way into the Catholic Church. Having access to the world wide web and a command of (in this case Englisyh & German, some Polish) they read about the Catholic Church, and found they agreed with the claims made therein. Some Russians have come to accept the apologia for the Roman Church on their own. Others, not forgetting efforts by the KGB to infiltrate the ROC, do not want to belong to it. We didn't go looking for them, they came looking for us.

Inconvienant fact #4: Islam is gaining ground [rferl.org] in a real and serious way in throughout the whole of the Russian Nation. Does the Patriarch prefer to stymie the growth of the Catholic church so he can deal with that? How does "Catholic proselitizing" compare to the Saudi [freerepublic.com] money that is funding the growth of Islam in Russia and the ex-USSR?

From The Wikipedia article, Religion in Russia [en.wikipedia.org] :

Using these numbers, one attempt to estimate numbers of practicing followers of different religions in Russia arrives at the following results: 3-15 million Russian Orthodox; 2.8 million Muslim; over 1.5 million Protestant (including at least 900 thousand Pentecostals); no more than 500 thousand Buddhists; 300 thousand followers of New religious movements; 60-200 thousand Roman Catholic; 50-80 thousand Old Believers.


Its time to give up the ghost and quit the saber rattling that "The Catholics are coming! The Catholics are Coming! Jesuit uniatizers (I made that one up) have been spotted on the horizon!"

It is old, it is tired, it is false, and his time and efforts to oppose Catholicism would definately be better spent trying to grow and teach his own faithful.

One wonders, what is he really afraid of and why?

In light of Patriarch Alexy's sad remarks, perhaps it would've been better to send in busloads of missionaries, since trying to be "ecumenical" is getting us nowhere with the Orthdox Church of Russia, apparently.

And he's NOT my namesake; my namesake is St. Alexis the Man of God. Both he and I have the honor of sharing that namesake.

Alexis

Balderdash!!!

I really try to avoid these postings as they interfere with things more spiritual, but honesty compels me to step in.

Mr Simple Sinner, I suggest that you take a walk around the streets of any Oh so Holy, supposedly Catholic (at least in name!) Western European city, before you start harping on Russia. Sunday mornings finds Moscow churches packed to overflowing. Can you say the same about Paris, Milan or Madrid. Attend to the beam in your own eye before you attend to the speck in your brothers.

Alexandr

Who said "Oh so holy?" Who?

Mr. Alexander,

No one is attending to any beams, specks, splinters or planks dear brother...

I am pointing out the felatious reasoning of the Patriarch. But this reasoning is convienant when it comes to stopping the discussion - so long as there are problems in the west we can't talk about what is going on there or where Catholics are? Until Milan is a citadel of saints, Catholics in Vladivostock deserve to be excoriated?

Dear Alexandr, I am the FIRST to admit the cultural sickness that plagues the west. You want to talk about it? count me in. I wrote about one of the worst attacks in the west here [blog.ancient-future.net]. I can call out the ills of the west. I am somewhat of an expert on them as for the past decade I was in line participating in them.

But let's turn what you said about Milan and Moscow around a little. Would it not be a blessing and spiritual boon to have Orthodox in Milan, Madrid and Paris decidedly NOT partaking in the waste that fill those cities and cultures? Would it NOT be (or in fact is it NOT) a good thing for the Eastern faithful in the west to be at prayer in those nations? So too for the Catholics of Russia.

But my thesis remains - we aren't invading, we aren't a threat. Russia has nothing to fear from less than a million Catholics being allowed to be what they are - Catholic.

Do you disagree with that?

Simple

Simmple Sinner, I realy do like your posts.

Every Catholic I know freely admits and acknowledges that Western Europe is pagan now, so I don't really know what you mean.. In Russia only 2% of the population fasted for Great Lent so they are not in great shape either.

Alexandr said:
Ummm, check out the capitals of tons of South American countries, like Peru or Ecuador or Paraguay. Check out Warsaw or Krakow. Check out Lisbon. Go to the Philippines.

Anyway, as Simple Sinner said, what's your point? Catholics don't deserve to be treated fairly in Russia until places like Paris are overflowing with saints?

What are the statistics for Church attendance in Russia? Numbers are oft bandied about, but I think it's safe to say it's really no higher than in pagan countries like France. Birth control, abortion, prostitution and the like are OUT OF CONTROL in Russia, and yet no one is saying that in France Russian Orthodox ought not have priests provided to them until every Russian attends Liturgy weekly. Give us a gigantic break, please.

Alexis

I wonder whether Patriarch Alexei believes that Catholics should convert to Orthodoxy?

Maybe he does, we would have to ask him. But it is not exactly a "zero sum game".

I mean it can't be presumed that any or every person who ends up in the Catholic Church or in another faith, would have become Orthodox if the Catholic Church were not an option.

Some folks who for cultural or ethnic or philisophical reasons might not join ANY church BUT the Catholic Church. If my French Canadian maternal grandparents were in a part of the world where there was no Catholic Church, for example, I think they would sit at home on Sunday morning and read from their old 1962 missal. (That is a practice my grandfather picked up in WW2 for sunday mornings when he could not get to the Catholic Chaplain's Mass or there was none available.)

I guess the question then becomes would it be better to have these people be secular (and perhaps then become decidedly anti-Christian in lifestyle, world view, morals etc.) or to allow them to be Catholics?

Does anyone think that if the Greek Orthodox Churches in Italy were shut down everyone would just become Catholic? Does anyone think that if the Ukrainian Catholics working in Greece did not have Catholic services, they would just join the local Greek Orthodox Church?

I went to college with a Bylorussian Orthodox girl who did not go to an Orthodox parish around here because it wasn't Bylorussian. I knew a Ukrainian Catholic who did not go to the Ukrainian Orthodox OR Ruthenian Catholic parish. She either went home (2 hours away) on Sundays, or just didn't go.

Not everyone who would join the Catholic Church in Russia would be "stolen from the Orthodox" or be "Orthodox otherwise." Some are "nothing" and would or will stay that way if Orthodoxy is their only option.

Further, here is a situation which presents itself not all that infrequently:

a group from the village of X (where the Greek-Catholics had no presence in living memory) turns up to meet with the nearest Greek-Catholic bishop, asking for a priest to organize a parish. The Bishop, a bit puzzled and not wanting trouble, explains that he is Greek-Catholic and surely the group wants to approach the Orthodox Bishop.

The group groans, and asks precisely which Orthodox Bishop the Greek-Catholic Bishop would suggest. Before he can answer, he discovers that at one recent time or another, the villagers have tried several of the conflicting Orthodox Bishops, to no useful effect.

The Greek-Catholic Bishop tries again, saying that surely these people are Orthodox, and perhaps they do not fully know what the Greek-Catholic Church is. The people respond that their great-grandparents were presumably Orthodox. They themselves want a priest whom they can trust to baptize them and their children, and to teach them what it means to be believing, practicing Christians. At that point, the Greek-Catholic Bishop, having been through this before, agrees to send a priest to meet with the village.

So what is the Bishop supposed to do - slam the door in the faces of these people?

Fr. Serge