www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Parishes being run into the ground in the Eparchy of Passaic

Robster,
I agree with you to a point. Catholic is Catholic. If your point is that the good people of our Ruthenian parishes who are forced out by their bishop should go to a Catholic parish, I think you will find the exact opposite to be true. In general, Cradle Byzantines have been been treated as second class Catholics by their Roman bretheren. 'Converts' are here because they chose to be here, and not the RC church. The next logical step, especially after the cruel treatment received by a Catholic bishop and his priests, for me anyway, would be to go home to where I believe we must really belong- to Orthodoxy

The puzzlement that I think befuddles Robster and other Latin Catholics like me is that there are 13 (4 in the U.S.) other Byzantine Catholic Churches available as "refuge" instead of going Orthodox, if there is reluctance to go to the nearest Latin Rite parish.

This is where the phrase "Catholic is Catholic" should not be rendered merely as a lip service by Eastern Catholics as this Catholic prescriptive is what must identify us both (Latin and EC)!

Are Byzantine Catholics "Catholic" in name only?

The other Eastern Catholic jurisdictions have their issues also. Ukrainians with recited liturgies, the Melkites use inclusive language, etc. Orthodoxy has always been the safety valve for disaffected EC's. There's much less nonsense.

I always felt (and I'm sure many here also) that being EC was like being a second class Catholic. I lost count of how many Latins I've met that have no clue what a Byzantine Catholic is. A great many think I'm nuts when I try to convince them that they are as Catholic as they are. They refuse to believe it.

I love the Byzantine liturgy, and never considered becoming Roman Catholic. That's why I "Went Orthodox".

Actually Amadeus...at least the way I saw it...although I learned it wasn't realistic remaining in communion with Rome...that Byzantine Catholics who view themselves as being "Orthodox in Union with Rome" I would see as more "catholic" in that they express differences to the faith...not necessarily dragged to the Latin version of what is and what is not catholic...

The question remains - What makes a church? What makes a church a "house of God," - a place where one can commune with God and be renewed spiritually? Is it a rite? A hierarchy? A denomination? I think not. I believe it is the community of people who attend that church, and how well they follow and implement Christ's teachings. At Church of the Resurrection, under Father Dan's leadership and guidance, we had that. We reached out to the community, to the underprivileged, and the down-trodden, and the "un-churched," just like Father Dan did. We followed his example. He would often say "Always preach the Gospel, and if necessary, use words." He himself lived in this way. So in my quest for another place to worship, this is what I will seek - another community of Christ's disciples, who live up to and follow Christ's teachings, and a leader who does the same. I hope I can find that in another Eastern Rite, or Orthodox church, because I do so love our beautiful Liturgy, our customs, and our traditions. But if is not to be, then I will go where God leads me. And although Church of the Resurrection will probably ultimately close, the impact it has made on the Community can never be erased. That will be Father Dan's (and his parishioner's) legacy, and no-one - no Bishop, or any other church hierarchy, can take that away. Perhaps that is the lesson God wants us to learn in all this.

I think there is another thread regarding a RC priest who refused to give the eucharist to an Eastern Catholic child (or children) even though they are fully entitled to recieve...this type of behavior continues to have many EC's feel like 2nd class citizens...to me it's sad to view other ECs that don't have a problem with it...

Chris

Your last sentence is probably a non sequitor!

The Roman Catholic Church does NOT celebrate the Byzantine liturgy. Therefore, you can never translate into her.

The source of the puzzlement is: there are 14 Byzantine Catholic Churches which, undoubtedly, equally celebrate the Byzantine liturgy in its fullness.

In going Orthodox, there is this queasy feeling among us Latin Rite Catholics, at least for me, anyway, that the Byzantine litrugy as celebrated by Byzantine Catholic Churches is less full, or less fulfilling, than that celebrated by the Orthodox?

Perhaps, I am simply misunderstanding the particular situations!

Amadeus,

I think there are many of us who see ourselves as "Orthodox in union with Rome." That makes us "Orthodox" first and "in union with Rome" second. We see the schism as something tragic that we are compelled to live with, and certainly not as "good guys vs. bad guys," "right Church vs. wrong Church," etc.

Does that make us "Catholic" in name only? Naturally, some people will think so.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

When one appreciates the beauty of the Byzantine Liturgy, the personal touch in the reception of the Sacraments and the spiritualism of the Eastern Way, it becomes very difficult for one to abandon it in exchange for Latin Rite Catholicism as the only acceptable avenue. The only churches within acceptable driving distance from my house here on L.I. are 8 Latin rite churches and 1 Orthodox church...no other form of Catholicism. I go to church to worship the Almighty, not to ponder hierarchy...especially after what has been happening to us. Further, I pray for the unity between Orthodoxy and Catholicism...our faith is the same. I am sorry that some of us may disappoint you or cause you concern. Please try to understand our position, which was none of our doing.

Throughout my entirelife I have been trying to explain the difference between Roman Catholicism and the Byzantine rite, with little or no success. Having been born and raised a Byzantine catholic, going to a Roman church is very unfulfilling to me. It lacks the beauty and warmth. I agree with Spinrose 100% in this. To have this taken away from you without warning is equal to a stab in the back. I have heard others speak of how their bishop came and met with the parishes that he was going to shut down, and had Bishop Pataki done this with Ressurection, perhaps people would have an easier time of this. Not being told anything, hearing things after the fact or from people who know people is discouraging. Fr. Dan was always forthcoming with us, and to now be faced with a very tight lipped Eparchial hierarchy is very frustrating and saddening.

I agree with you and Spinrose regarding this, also. We get invited to family First Communions, weddings, funerals, etc., all in Roman Catholic churches, and we leave feeling that something is missing. We have a vacation home in the South, and there are no Byzantine Catholic churches nearby - only one a 2 and 1/2 hour's drive away. We tried to attend the local RC Church, but we felt extremely uncomfortable there, the Mass was over in a very short period of time, and no-one was friendly. So now, when we are there, we attend Liturgy at the Greek Orthodox Church. The only problem is, we may not receive Holy Communion in that church, because we are "uniates." However, we are treated kindly and welcomed in every other way. It's a very ethnic congregation, and the Liturgy is entirely in Greek, but the parishioners are warm, kind and welcoming, so we feel entirely "at home" there. It's tough to be uprooted at our age, but we'll keep trying.

Well said, Etnik !!!


To the Roman Catholics who genuinely don't understand this, please consider:

Eastern Catholics are Catholics, but they are not Roman. Their traditions and origins lie with different patriarchs than Rome: the patriarchs of Constantinople, Antioch, Moscow and so on. In other words, their origins and traditions are from the Orthodox world.

And so, the Eastern Catholics are a hybrid of sorts. They are under the ultimate authority of the patriarch of Rome, but they are Orthodox in their liturgy and customs and mindset. Or, as they like to say, they are Orthodox in Communion with Rome.

Hence, if Eastern Catholics have to choose which church to attend, Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, they often choose Eastern Orthodox because it is closest in practice to their own religion.

It is not a fun choice to make, by the way. Eastern Catholics generally prefer being Eastern Catholic (Orthodox in Communion with Rome). Otherwise, in a society with freedom of religion, they would have become Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic or something else long ago.

But if Eastern Catholics have no Eastern Catholic parish to worship in --because they move to a new location of if a bishop shuts their parish down-- they have to make that choice. And some choose to be Roman Catholic, but others become Orthodox.

It's not a question of Catholic and Orthodox being interchangeable. They are not. It is a question of finding the best alternative when one's Eastern Catholic church is no longer available.

-- John

Outstanding post !

Thank you, Meg, and may God bless you and guide you all !

-- John

Orthodoxy can be found to have both recited liturgies as well as "inclusive language", and other questionable practices such as "vesperal liturgies" which are also somewhat controversial in both Orthodoxy and amongst the Greek Catholics.

These are not the sole property of Greek Catholics (I myself have been present at weekday "recited liturgies" at an Orthodox parish), and abuses or exceptions cannot in general be argued to be normative of any particular Church.

Very Good Points Fr. Deacon...

One shouldn't run from a church they should be running toward another...We have to remember these Churches are run by human beings (of a fallen nature like ourselves)...we can not expect the grass to be greener on the other side...although, at the moment it is in some areas, but browner in others...I know I have had Orthodox priests say to me that many members of the BCC are "More Orthodox" in their beliefs than some "cradle Orthodox"...the key is to not "jump" but make a wise & careful decision...I can happily say, at least for myself,so far so good...but I know others who "jumped" and are not pleased with there decision (mainly those who went RC since they couldn't break communion with Rome) prayer and God's guidance are what to focus on...not externals...God will lead you where He wants you to go if you only listen to His will and don't let your will cloud the way...

Chris