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Why is the Immaculate Conception a holy day of obligation, but not the Annunciation?
Ed

Ed,

I would have thought that you would be aware of the following idea, but maybe I was wrong.

In the Catholic Church (I am a Latin Rite Catholic, and in the USA people would call me a "Roman Catholic" whether that is a technically correct phrase or not) there is a decided lack of interest in whether a particular great saint or teacher of the faith was "eastern" or "western". In our tradition, what is of uttermost importance is the depth of that person's witness to Christ and orthodox Catholic doctrine.

Ordinary Catholics, who have not studied religion or theology beyond the basics, might be confused about that, or entirely ignorant of it. There have recently been decades where even the rudiments of the Faith were not "handed on" to them with clarity. So it becomes a bit problematic as to my following a point you are trying to make when you use generalities like "most catholics", "the catholics", etc. It would be helpful to delimit exactly what Catholic you are referring to.

For example, there is a Father McBrien at Notre Dame University who has written a large volume called "Catholicism". I haven't read it, but I understand it is a bit tendentious (agenda-ridden) and not necessarily a good basic text on which to learn the Catholic Church's beliefs and traditions. It makes a difference to me in my attempt to understand your questions/points whether what you are talking about is an idea you read in "Catholicism" or one you read in the "Catechism of the Catholic Church".

For what it's worth.

God bless.
Michael

Where?

For centuries, the Annunciation was a universal holy day of obligation; in fact, it used to be "New Years Day" throughout Europe.

In Spain, when I lived there in the early 80's the Annunciation was a holy day of obligation.

Michael

Michael McD.

I came across McBrien's "Catholicism" a few times over the years. It is a pretty poor text, but a favorite on Catholic campuses.

My questions/points are from my observations.

Eastern Catholics name their cathedrals after the Immaculate Conception. The U.S. has the Immaculate Conception as a holy day of obligation, but not the Annunciation. Byzantine Catholics remember the Immaculate Conception on December 8, not December 9. Roman Catholics are going one way with their worship (Latin Mass and ridding of inclusive language), but Eastern Catholics are being relevant. Lutherans defending Crysostom while Byzantine Catholics defending Thomas Aquinas and Aristotle.

All of these reflect, like some posters have indicated, that to be considered real Catholic, all members must adopt the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

I am not for or against what they do in their own churches. I can only observe phenomena that I have no control over. If it looks, smells, and tastes like X then ...

What explains this phenomenon?

Ed Hashinsky

Ed,

Yes, I had heard that "Catholicism" is/was a favorite, and that speaks poorly of the professors of Catholic theology at those schools.

I haven't opined at all about the questions raised about the RDL and I will not opine about that.

The dates when liturgical feasts are celebrated in all the different rites of the Catholic Church may vary according to the customs of the individual Churches -- that poses no problem to belief that I'm aware of.

To be considered a "real Catholic" one must confess the Faith of the Catholic Church, and be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. That's all there is to it. If that is present, then the person looks, smells and feels Catholic, to borrow your way of putting it. Whether one is also on the way to sanctification/theosis is another matter, and the process of a lifetime.

What explains this phenomenon? "In essentials unity, in non-essentials diversity, in everything charity." Not a biblical phrase in the Protestant sense, but Catholic nevertheless.

God bless.
Michael

Michael. I appreciate you quoting the Lutheran and Reformed saying (which was always falsely attributed to Augustine).

So, what is essential? what is non-essential? Has charity always been extended to those Eastern Catholics who refused to give up their essential religious teachings and practices? what is essential or non-essential is in the eye of the church community or whicever one is larger and can bully more.

Listen, how one church treated another in the past is something that Roman Catholics and Byzantine Catholics have to reconcile both in their hearts and in their policies.

That Eastern Catholics still feel it necessary to prove their Catholicism by adopting their Roman Catholic ways is troubling. It is confusing and odd. I once asked by Eastern Catholic student friend if he knew anything about the Cappadocians and Chrysostom. My question flew over his head. He prefered to speak about and defend Aquinas.

Ed

And what more can be said Ed? My hierarchs taught and still teach me that I can be fully Orthodox and in Communion with Rome. I can be 100% Eastern in the Melkite Greek Catholic Church.

For those who are attached to latinizations, it is best, at this time to minister to thier needs and not create any more unnessary fuss of matters. My prime concern as a young person, though, is that when the older generation goes to greet the Lord, I will be surrounded by a new generation that has accepted the old mentality of latinization. That's why my primary concern is catechesis and religious education, true to our Eastern tradition.

Leaving all that aside! I believe it is authenticity people really want whether they are Latins of the West or Byzantines of the East. People want an authentic witness to the Gospel.
Some will at first leave because they hear a strong message but then they will return when they realize what the outside has to offer them
People need to be challenged. And I think this was born out in the talks that were held in our parish last week end.
I have never seen so much enthusiasm even among the young.
Stephanos I
PS And by authentic witness I don't mean the ultra right message.
Be who you are called to be! Christians, with a radical counter cultural gospel, and you will see growth. You will also see hostility.

Stephanos I,

I see your point and agree very much with it. I like the idea of a "radical counter cultural gospel"; this time where the Christians are the radicals, not the ungodly.

Though there will always be those who would rather be inauthentic just to prove a point. They will change with the wind to be accepted and listen glistfully to those preachers who tickle their ears.

But I still want to know a few things: Why is the Immaculate Conception a holy day of obligation for Roman Catholics, but not the Annunciation? Why do Byzantine Catholics remember this holy day on the same day as the Roman Catholics (December 8)? Why are Eastern Catholic cathedrals named after this dogma instead of Saint Anne? I believe I heard some of the answer in previous posts, but I am still not convinced fully that anyone knows for sure.

Thanks! Ed H.

Hi Ed,

In response to your questions posed to me:

I don't have much knowledge of the various questions surrounding the Last Supper and in what context it did or did not occur in relation to Jewish Pesach. I do know that the Catholic Church holds that either leavened or unleavened bread is perfectly proper matter to be used for Eucharist so that is the position that I hold.

When I refer to the 'Church', I am referring to the Catholic Church. I can see Roman and Byzantine as particular churches, but I refer to the Church as being Catholic.

Yes, I think Catholics of varying theologies can live in harmony together, though I think it depends upon what that means. The way I unpack that is as follows. There is a set of normative, infallible, immutable Catholic dogmatic and moral truths, and I would say that all Catholics of all rites must affirm all of these together. Beyond that, in areas that have not been immutably established, there can be differences and in forms of worship and expression there can be differences. Also, I would say that in the area of infallible immutables, there can be a varying focus and emphasis or de-emphasis that varies among Catholics.

Is Patriarch Photius a Catholic saint? I assume he is not. Speaking for myself personally, I hope he is not.

But given that I spent nearly 45 minutes on the phone last year with a priest at the Vatican and was unable to clearly establish whether Gregory Palamas is a Catholic saint or not, I don't claim any extensive or priviledged knowledge in this area.

With all the swirl surrounding various claims of who is or is not a saint, for the time being, I have adopted the position that anybody who has clearly preached heresy that they did not recant during their earthly life is not a saint unless or until the Vatican clearly, openly, unmistakably, and explicitly says so. I don't believe this has occured with Photius or Palamas.

Also, my understanding is that anybody who is a Catholic saint is a saint for all Catholic particular churches by defintion. My understanding is that the Congregation for the Causes of the Saints is one of the congregations that has full jurisdictional competency over the entire Catholic Church Universal.

Best to all,
Robster

Ed...I agree with you...again I'm coming at it from an Orthodox perspective...that's part of the papal infallibility issue that the Orthodox have a problem with...what was the need to declare this infallible? Every Catholic/Orthodox Christian believes this...what was the purpose of incorporating this into doctrine???

Chris

Diak...

Thanks for posting this...I know, in the 35 years I was a member of the BCC I never gave much thought, or attention to the IC...never realized it was consided a "Holy Day of Obligation" in the UGCC...

It was considered sort of a de facto national "day of obligation" for all Catholics in the US, and I am pleased to see the clarification from the Hierarchs.

Diak,

Does this mean that the Immaculate Conception is no long observed on December 8 by the Byzantine Ukrainian Catholic church in the USA?

Robster