www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Split between Constantinople & Greece

Actually all of Mt. Athos does still commeorate the EP. The only monastery that doesnt is the
Holy Monastery of ESPHIGMENOU. They have been declared schismatics by the EP for there refusal to commemerate him. The EP has been a major persecuter of these monks. He has delcared them schismatics and has there basic need of food, clothes and medical supplies cut off. The Police have also blocked off this monastery from the other so the only way to get there is to sneak in.


At one point in time I believe I was told around the 20's and some time in the 60's all of Mt. Athos didnt commerate the EP. Mosocow Droped him from the dyptics for a while. I hope they do stop commemorating him. It would force him fix things that should have never been changed in the first place. If they did decided to stop commemerating him, I would gather he would do what he as done to the monastery of ESPHIGMENOU. Delcare them schismatics and persecute them as well.


Yeah CNN does suck for news, but they are quicker to get the "news" out. I am really anticipating these future events.

In Christ
Nektarios

Gospodi moi...

Well it would appear from reports that HB +Peter of Alexandria and HB +Irineaos of Jerusalem have come out in support of the Ecumenical Patriarch in this unfortunate and troubling issue. As to the status of the other local churches, no reports have yet emerged. From all the readings I have been doing over this topic over the last few days, I have to say that my sympathies lie with Constantinople and that Athens is acting in a manner not befitting of it.

Anton

As far as I can see, everything that the His All Holiness has done in this matter is in keeping with the canonical norms that govern the Church. If we ignore these norms or break them at will, the Church descends into chaos.

My estimate is that the conservative islanders and people of Epiros, Macedonia, and Thrace would prefer to maintain their current link with Constantinople, especially as the Turkish government begins to loosen its control over his actions. As this happens, he will be able to fulfill his role as their Patriarch once again.

We forget that administration of the Northern regions and Islands was left with the Church of Greece because of the severe restrictions that had been placed upon His office by the Turkish govt.

In Christ,
Andrew

Dear Nektarios,

If I am not mistaken, the unfortunate reason for not commemorating the EP in the 1960's was because of the blessed lifting of the mutual anathemas (the sin of not forgiving) between East and West.

I don't really know what to make of all the current events. No one knows the motives. I do hope, and pray, however that the Holy Spirit is englightening and guiding, and that whatever the motives are, that they may be for a greater good someday.

What I do know is the the EP has made excellent strides in reestablishing love and spiritual communion between the Patriarch of Rome and the East.

In Christ,
Alice

Christ is Risen!
Truly He is Risen!

Exactly so, Andrew. There was a duress situation in which temporary governance was granted due to Turkish oppression. Which is why I say that the EP is correct in his legal position, and why he is being supported by the Synod.

Morally, however, I think that this is not a good position to have forced the Church into, that of being watched by CNN and misinterpreted. I think that it ought to have been handled with more humilty and care on both sides, as befits monastics, and not this level of confrontation.

I and many others are saddened that the things that will have a Synod summoned seem to by matters relating to "administration" rather than theology. But we do not know what is in the hearts and minds of the clergy, and our prayers must be offered for them, whichever "side" we take in the matter, as we pray for those who hate us and those who love us. So however we feel about the situation, we need to pray for our hierarchs.

Gaudior, thinking "legally right" and "the right thing to do in the current climate" are not the same thing....

Christ is Risen!
Truly He is Risen!

Dear in Christ Nektarios,

I stand corrected; Esphigmenou IS the last non-commemorating monastery, I was thinking of the earlier years when the monasteries had banded together to show their support.

For anyone interested in that, the following URL may be useful.

http://members.rogers.com/esphigmenoumonastery/enter.html

In Christ,

Gaudior, who really wishes these things could be resolved properly, in ecclesiastical Synods, not secular courts.

We should also recognize that the Patriarch, residing precariously in Turkey, is in a public dispute with Archbishop Christodoulos, residing securely in Athens. This is the same Archbishop who recently referred to the Turks as "barbarians" in the context of the discussion of their potential participation in the EU.

The Patriarch is no doubt simultaneously gaining points with secular authorities in Constantinople/Istanbul and with the influential proponents throughout the "civilized" world of eventual Turkish membership in the EU.

If all of this is for the glory of God, i.e. re-attainment of the Patriarch's special role as ecumenical leader of the Orthodox Church, then it can only be for good.

As for ecumenical synods gathering for theological reasons, they only do so when absolutely necessary. Thank God that that has not been necessary (in the East) for centuries.

In Christ,
Andrew

Christ is Risen!
Truly He is Risen!

Dear Andrew...

One word:

CALENDAR

and rather a few others...the Synods in resistance following the Russian Revolution...etc..

There are many things that want recognizing (the Ecumenical nature of 8th and 9th Councils, for instance)

Gaudior, saying, there are issues to be resolved

The EP really has no Jurisdiction of this terroritory because it is in the confines of the National Church of Greece. The only part the EP would have control over that is in this region is Athos.

In Christ
Nektarios

Actually, this is factually incorrect. The EP's jurisdiction extends to 30 dioceses in Greece, the so-called "Northern Territories." After Greece conquered them in 1912 there was some dispute over who controlled them; in 1928 an agreement was reached where the Pat. of Constantinople would retain spiritual control over the dioceses while administratively they would sit on the Synod of Greece. To my knowledge, there were provisions for when the Patriarch could assert his rights if certain conditions were not met, which is what this dispute is all about. In the New Territories, the Patriarch is commemorated followed by the Holy Synod of Greece.

anastasios

Dear Gaudior,

Of course there are issues to be discussed.

But are they really theological?

Certainly the calendar is not a theological issue. It is an organizational issue and one that should not be dividing Christians at the chalice. [For example, within the Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania (OCA), there are parishes on both Old and New calendars.]

The regularization of various non-normative ecclesial/synodal situations and the addressing of ecclesial organization in the new world (the Americas, Australia) are not theological issues.

The only theological issue possibly ready at this time for decision would be recognition that the Calcedonian/Non-Calcedonian split was over a perceived difference in Christology that in truth doesn't exist. The logical result of this recognition should be the joyous re-establishment of communion between the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Communities.

[Of course, reestablishment of communion will require a redefinition of the roles and jurisdictions of the Patriarch of Alexandria and the Pope of Cairo. Perhaps the Ethiopian Church would even be granted its own Patriarch - considering its history and size.]

In Christ,
Andrew

The Ethiopian Church does have its own patriarch.

Christ is Risen!
Truly He is Risen!

Dear Andrew,

As near as I can tell, the calendar prevents no one from communing where he pleases among the Churches in Communion. It IS a theological issue, however, in that even now New Calendar parishes have shortened the fasts because of it. And during the 1920s, whole parishes were in schism over this issue, the Athonites stopped commemorating the EP, and you say that there was NO NEED in the CHURCH at THAT TIME to address this???? Please.

As to there being OCA being OCA parishes in PA on the Old Calendar, this interests me greatly. I know the GOA still has some Old Calendar (canonical) parishes, and the Ukrainian Orthodox of course are OC, as well as MP and ACROD parishes. Which OCA parishes are OC?

The issue of jurisdiction in America is not merely administrative, either. There are canons concerning one bishop per territory. Due to the Russian Revolution, Russia, who had the "right" to America, could not care for it. Thus every jurisdiction now (uncanonically) has a bishop. To be correct, the Orthodox Churches need to once again be under ONE Archbishop, united. And that would be under the who-was-here-first rule. Meaning the Russians. This needs to be resolved, and cannot continue indefinitely in what is an uncanonical situation brought about by a need for ekonomia. The CHURCH hierarchy, and who can appoint bisops, is something that needs addressing. And uncanonical situation is in fact, theological in nature.

Gaudior, who awaits your reply re: Old Calendarist OCA churches in PA

Dear Anastasios,

Many years on your adopted nameday - (May 2nd translation of his relics).

Yes you are correct (as usual but not always ) regarding the Ethiopian Patriarch. However, somehow I'm remembering (perhaps incorrectly), the claim of the Popes of Alexandria/Cairo that the Ethiopian Church is still canonically dependent upon the Egyptian Church? In other words, the Ethiopian Patriarchate has been declared by the Ethiopians/Abyssinians but never granted by their parent, the Egyptian Copts.

If what I remember is correct, then I was implying that the autocephaly, Patriarchal status, and canonical territory of the Ethiopian Church would be recognized by all participants.

In Christ,
Andrew

Recently Pope Shenouda consecrated an Eritrean Patriarch as well, which caused the Ethiopians to have an uproar. So I think that perhaps we are both right. I do recall that Alexandria claims primacy over the entire African continent (the Copts are the ones with missions in Africa mostly), but I think it recognizes the patriarchal status of Ethiopia, but in a subordianate role. We'd have to call in an Oriental Orthodox canonist to sort that one out!

anastasios