www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings Romans 5:19

Joe,

It is precisely with regard to questions like this that apophasis comes in handy. We are speaking here of divine realities, and human concepts and categories simply fall short of being able to convey them at that level.

For example, we know that God is not constrained by any law outside of Himself, which means that God's justice comes directly out of the (ineffable) divine essence! Thus, we can never accuse God of acting unjustly, even if He acts outside our categories of justice/injustice. God is not acting capriciously--"making it up as He goes along"--but revealing Himself through His actions.

So, we can certainly "question why God does such things," so long as by question we mean "seek to understand" and not "exercise judgment against."


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Deacon Richard:

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!!

Now there's a profound nugget I just wanted to separate out so I could stare at it for awhile and let it sink in.

Thanks.


Maybe that's why sometimes it seems that the best way to understand the mystery of God and His working in His creation is to surrender to His Perfect Will and wait patiently until one hits the Kingdom where He can take an eternity to explain the "why."

In Christ,
BOB

Father Deacon Richard,

This would also be my approach. In fact, this is one advantage that the apophatic tradition of theology has in our day. Apophatic theology can escape the dilemmas that present themselves to traditional Christianity because of the state of modern knowledge.

Joe

Joe:

I think the answer, from an Eastern perspective, is that we need to be content with Mystery. We need to be content to not fully understand; to understand, in fact, that the Divine Providence works all things together for our good and that applies even when it seems that things are upside down and wrong side out.

The story of the Blessed Anthony in the Desert Fathers sums it up:

Anthony was asking in prayer why evil people succeed and the good often fail; why so many are hungry and why some have more than enough; etc. The answer came back: "These are the judgments of God and are not for you to know." (Remember "know"--having an intimate/complete knowledge or relationship to.)

Who can plumb the depths of the wisdom of God? Who can understand FULLY His purpose? Who can see the whole of His Grand Design in a glimpse? ADmittedly not me in answer to all these questions. But I am content with that.

In Christ,

BOB

BOB,

I agree. In fact, I've always had a bit of a problem with St. Augustine's "let me not seek to understand that I might believe, but to believe that I might understand," which makes it seem that understanding should be the goal of faith. While I'm sure he did not intend for it to be taken that way, such a statement would undoubtedly have that effect--especially since a religion that we can understand will always have a certain appeal to us in this life.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Dear Deacon Richard,
Wouldn't you say that reason unaided by faith is not even capable of belief. Unless you determine "belief" as just intellectual assent to something.
Stephanos I

David Hume makes a rather interesting point. He believes that belief has nothing to do with free will. We cannot freely choose to believe that 2+3=6. We cannot not believe that 2+3=5. Truth shows itself to the mind with necessity. So, for example, I cannot make myself really believe something that doesn't show itself to me as necessarily being true. If Hume is right (and I suspect that he may be), then from a theological point of view, this would mean that the gift of faith is absolutely essential to being able to believe. One cannot honestly assent to a theological proposition (e.g. God exists) unless one is given the faith to do so. Without the gift of faith, we are agnostics even if we do not want to admit this to ourselves. Of course, this means that genuine doubt and uncertainty really are sins, in fact more than sins, they are the sign that one does not really have true faith.

Yes, it seems to me that the upshot of this view is that those who are certain have faith and those who are not are just kidding themselves. As one who is rather uncertain, I must look at myself and ask myself if I am really a Christian or if I'm just fooling myself. My advice, folks, do not study philosophy, nor the sciences. Best to put one's head in the sand.

Joe

"True faith" is not for us to judge, even on ourself.

Father Deacon Richard,


I was a bit surprised that you had a "problem" with these words of St. Augustine since what you said in your prior post is exactly what I think he was getting at. If you read his quote here, and see if it cannot be understood as you expressed it, I think you'll see what I mean. The "knowledge" St. Augustine was interested in was not knowledge of secular realities, but to know God "as we are known" by Him, following on the expressions of St. Paul and St. John. He quotes those passages everywhere, the Confessions, his homilies, his letters, etc. He wants to begin to "know" here, knowing that the culmination will be the personal "knowledge" which God will grant in Heaven.

Best,
Michael

Joe, people can go in fruiitless circles about this.

Hume's point, by the way, is inaccurate: as George Orwell demonstrated in his classic, 1984. The totalitarian Communists in that novel expected people to practice "doublethink," for example, knowing that 2+2=4, yet believing and professing as true that 2+2=5. My point is not arithmetic. My point is that people can convince themselves of a wide variety of views, even if those views are patently (false such as Communism).

Hence truth transcends only intellection. In other words, truth does not discard the intellect; truth contains the intellect, but truth is not contained or limited to only the intellect. Truth transcends intellection.

And the organ of transcendance is called the nous in Greek, the heart as otherwise known. "I love you" said truly by another is not just (or even mostly) intellection; it is also faith; it is also trust; it is also joy; and it is also none of these for it is; and hence too, it is also a choice, a decision, sometimes made daily, and sometimes even hourly . . .

And that Word of Love is Eternal and it is Christ, spoken in us and through us by the Spirit, from and back unto the Father. Eternity is I, Thou, We: Love.


Joe: you're a Christian. Now, have some decaf, take a walk, say the Jesus Prayer, and be well.

-- John

Michael,

You have some good points here, but they relate to knowledge, whereas I was focusing on understanding. We can know things without understanding them--indeed, we can know God, whom we certainly cannot understand.

Furthermore, I was referring to St. Augustine's dictum, not so much as he understood it, but as it would be taken and used by later generations of theologians. Understanding can be a good thing, but if sought for its own sake it can also be a trap.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Joe:

You're a Christian or you wouldn't be asking this question.

Those who are certain may be deluded. Those who have faith simply SURRENDER to Christ at some point and accept all that He teaches in and through His Church. As I've pointed out before, I resolved long ago that I didn't want to have an opinion about many things. My whole orientation has always been "What does the Church say?" and "What does the Church teach?" The Church is my guarantee of what Christ taught for the salvation of me and of everyone else. For me, everything else in the world is so much junk. The Church has survived for 2000+ years amidst persecution in every cnetury and every country. Yet she has surveived with the same message: God became man in order that man might become like God.

Take the advice of our brother--take some decaf; try the Jesus prayer for an hour; take a deep breath; put it in God's Providential Hands and relax. You are a blessing to me and have edified me greatly. May God bless you for that.

In Christ Who has made you our brother by Baptism,

BOB

My brothers, thank you for your encouragement, your words of wisdom, and your prayers. I have a tendency to be obsessive about things. But, I'm also in academia and it is a part of my career to flesh out these kinds of issues.

Joe

I happen to believe Paul is speaking rather straightforwardly here and basically saying what you suggest.

Father Deacon Richard,

I agree with you, especially about what later writers may have said. The difference between "knowing" and "understanding" in Latin is not obvious given that "intelligere" can carry both meanings.

IMO, the telltale sign for St. Augustine is when he comments on expressions from the Scriptures such as seeing God "with the eyes of the heart", which he loves to ponder. He was a gifted intellectual himself, but he gloried in that God had touched him not by what Augustine knew, but intus, intimately, personally, within the heart.

Best,
Michael