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Sounds about right...


Sounds about right as well...It took along time for me to see what I didn't want to see for 25 years...The BCC is the RCC with "smells and bells"...

OK Rob, we will start here. The Anthologion printed in Rome by the Oriental Congregation (not the Eastern Bishops themselves, but a dicastery of the Holy See) in 1974, Volume II, pages 1607-1614 contains the restored service to St. Gregory Palamas for the second Sunday of the Great Fast.

In the cover of the book is a clear documentation that this was printed with the APPROBATION OF THE HOLY SEE. So (1) published by a Roman dicastery and (2) the approbation of the Holy See. This one I have seen with my own eyes, and yes, I do believe it to be authentic. It does not indicate St. Gregory Palamas is maybe, or sort of, or is disputed to be, a saint anywhere within the document. It only refers to him as St. Gregory Palamas...

Secondly according to Jesuit Fr. Dennis Smolarski, there are specific occasions Pope John Paul II actually referred to him as St. Gregory Palamas without any clarification that he was maybe, sort of, or disputed to be, a saint. I am sure we can get those date by date with a bit of looking.

Thirdly also there is the example of the books of the Melkite Synod, approved by Rome in 1971, which also provides an optional service for St. Gregory Palamas on the second Sunday of the Great Fast. While I have not seen this one first hand, I do believe its authenticity. His Grace Bishop +Nicholas Samra has publically and unequivocally stated St. Gregory is to be considered a saint according to the Melkite Greek Catholic Church. I have seen no censuring from either his own hierarchy nor Rome regarding these statements.

I think Bishop +Basil Losten's comments in the Paschal Pilgrimage for Ukrainian Catholics is a good synopsis:
And Kyr +Basil continues further: Restoration to Catholic liturgical practice.

You once again mistake my words; I do not doubt your Latin priest contacts are providing appropriate spiritual or theological direction and apologize if my words were not more clear or misconstrued. I do not, however, feel they are experienced or have the background to make appropriate statements or interpretations regarding the direction my Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is taking regarding these issues. Likewise I would not presume to make statements regarding binding aspects of Latin canonical prescriptions.

Diak,

While this seems to revolve solely around liturgical matters, it's enough of a start that I can work with, thank you.

The absence of anything authoritative from the magisterium that calls for an assent by the faithful in accordance with the Code of Canons for the Eastern Catholic churches or the Code of Canon Law [Latin] leaves me puzzled and skeptical, nonetheless.

With all due respect, I'm not going to be assigning much weight to off-hand comments and actions by JPII, whether it's Palamas, Jews being our elder brothers, or venerating the Qur'an.

I also believe that the Catholic Church's priests, regardless of rite or particular church, do have every right to offer an informed viewpoint and guidance to the faithful when it comes to a non-Catholic who condemned the leadership of the Church as heretical and never recanted.

My apologies, to the extent I have been or may have come across as insufficiently charitable.

Best to all,
Robster

Rob,

Blessings!

I do not think you come across uncharitable- you have direct questions. You ask fair and challenging questions for us.

I do think you will need to acquiesce on the Palamas issue; the documents Diak presented seem pretty authoritative to me.

Lance

The Orthodox only have to look as far as the Eastern Catholic churches to see what would happen to them, their church, and their theology. What conclusion do you think they will arrive at?

Ed

Thank you, Diak, for supplying this important information. This seems to bring closure to the question about Saint Gregory Palamas.

However ...

The Byzantine Catholic church recently published a worship hymnal without Saint Gregory Palamas in it. You mention that the saint IS scheduled by Father Petras. How does one reconcile one priest saying it is ok to remember this saint, but then have him omitted from public worship? There seems to be a contradiction in instruction. Given the new worship hymnals, will Byzantine Catholics ever learn who this important Eastern Church father was? Will Byzantine Catholics be able to freely hold such restored services for the saint on the second Sunday of the Great Fast? Is there any evidence of it being promoted?

Ed

Rob,

"I also believe that the Catholic Church's priests, regardless of rite or particular church, do have every right to offer an informed viewpoint and guidance to the faithful when it comes to a non-Catholic who condemned the leadership of the Church as heretical and never recanted."

What then of St. Photius who died reconciled to and in communion with Rome?

One can shop around for answers until one finds one they like. I fought with Dr. Carroll when he was still on EWTN Q&A about whether we were Churches or Rites and whether St. Constantine was a saint. It took Mr. Donovan to correct him and send him off to retirement.

I am sure you can find plenty of misinformed Latin priests to tell you what you want to hear. Just don't come hear and tell us we are supposed to care.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Thank you, Chris.
Ed

Father Deacon Lance,

How does the Byzantine Catholic church remember this saint? Saint Gregory Palamas is not in the official worship hymnal that was recently published. Is Saint Photius also absent? I can't find him on my on-line version. I would appreciate it if you can direct me to the page.

Ed

Ed,

Well it just so happens last year's deacon retreat was during the Second Sunday of Lent and the Metropolitan was our retreat master and celebrated all our services. We commemorated St. Gregory Palamas with the texts from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute and the Metropolitan had no objection, so I think it is safe to say we can freeely celebrate his service. $10 if you can guess who brought the texts.

The pew book doesn't have St. Gregory's troparion, but it doesn't have any other saint's troparion either, aside from 10 or so who have solemn feasts. Oh yeah and Dec 8 is commemorated as the Maternity of St. Anna.

Fr. Deaocn Lance

These are the texts for St. Gregory from the MCI. At Liturgy only the troparion would be used.

http://metropolitancantorinstitute.org/sheetmusic/2007/03-03-07GF2SundayGreatVespers.pdf

Dear Ed,

If by "official worship hymnal" you mean the green Divine Liturgies book that was published for the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh, you should know that (like its various predecessors) this book only contains the major feasts; that's why it includes general texts for "categories" of saints. For that matter, many lists of feastdays are not complete, in that they list only one saint "of the day". But the Archeparchy's Typikon, and the online menaion from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute, list Gregory Palamas on November 14, and Photios of Constantinople on February 6.

Jeff

Or rather every day has mutiple saints assigned to it but only one usually gets commemorated. St. Photios is assigned to Feb 6, but St. Bucolus of Smyrna is the commeorated saint that day. Also it is usual to not even take saint of the day troparia on Sunday in the Metropolia. It is usually Troparion of the Resurrectional Tone+Kontakion of the Resurrectional Tone+Theotokion

The "Police" that wander around here? Hardly. Petras+ himself has re-affirmed the commemoration.

But really this is telling - our expert on us makes claims that a parish he is familiar with publicly takes the commemoration, but it is a secret.

At the same time that he knows it to be done, he asks if it is, at the same time it is taken publicly, it is a secret?

Ah yes, the old and dreaded "This could happen to you argument."

A classic!

I hope it is not your intention, but that is a little bit like showing people a photo of my mother and saying "Date his sister and you will end up with this!" Part of your premise seems to rest on the idea that "being us" is very undesirable.

Pardon me, if I disagree.

If what Rome teaches is true, it will be attractive to be in union with her.

On the flip side of that coin, some of us don't think the grass is all that greener. We are happy where we are.