www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West What Separates Catholicism and Orthodoxy

Orthodoxy to take an example teaches that the Papacy is not intrinsic to the nature of the church, that it is an office basically like that of any other bishop with primacy of honor only, and that it has maintained the correct apostolic view of the office. That is not a complementary view, that is alternate view. Both can't be right.

I think the statements made by both churches recently clarified the issue. They're both making the same parallel claim (with different criteria of course to support the claim) at the same time as to being "the church". One is right, one is wrong, or both are wrong.


That would of course indicate the church (one or the other) is actually fallible.


Both sides are likely guilty of pride and a fair amount of historical hubris. Doesn't change the fact that they have developed contradictory claims and backing off such claims has consequences far beyond swallowing pride.

Ahhh...brings back memories...I taught High School Theology the first few years out of college...loved every moment of it...except when the bills came due and couldn't make ends meet on a Catholic School Salary...

Chris

PS I agree with John...but I would make sure I tie in historical reference to the misunderstandings of 1054 and utilize the "teaching moment" to speak about listening to one another not just hearing someone...

1. the bishop of Rome: his authority and his jurisdiction

2. the fourth crusade

3. the filioque, as an example of (1) and of different understandings of grace, holiness and the Christian life

4. cataphaticism versus apophaticism (and how they can oppose each other or complement each other)

Dear Friends,

With respect to who is right or not - the kids are either EC or Orthodox.

My planned approach is to emphasize what unites us, talk about why we are apart and how we might try and be more civil toward each other, more ecumenically open etc. without, however, watering down what each feels is important for the fullness of the expression of their Church's Faith and Tradition.

At the same time, since these are Ukrainian children (including many from mixed marriages whose parents have deliberately chosen the UGCC and UOC-Canada), I'm going to emphasize to the EC children (the majority) a decidedly "Orthodox" emphasis.

I'm going to tell them about the meaning of "Orthodox" and how it is a term not to be despised. Also, about the Orthodox Saints that are part of our one heritage, including the Kyivan Caves Lavra Saints and also the Kyivan Baroque Saints, including the New Martyrs of both sides - with the aim to getting them used to including Orthodox Saints within their "spiritual radar screen."

We're going to discuss our common traditions, eschewed from their Latinized variations, such as icon corners, the celebration of namesdays and the importance of becoming fully integrated into the liturgical and spiritual life of the Church.

Also, the Jesus Prayer and how to practice it with chotki's (together with 'hands on' training!). Akathists and an introduction to the Horologion.

Yes, we will openly explore the areas that divide us, including the papacy and the Filioque. But I'm also going to give each one of them a copy of the Nicene Creed WITHOUT the Filioque to take home with them to memorize and use in their daily prayers, together with a copy of the UGCC in Canada's document affirming the use of the Creed sans Filioque.

In short, we will emphasize what truly does unite us, even the way certain Latinizations in both the Ukrainian Orthodox and Catholic Churches have, at least sometimes, tended to reduce the differences. We will also look at the Orthodox Confession of Faith of St Peter Mohyla.

Also, such seemingly insignificant practices as wearing the Cross and the prayer associated with putting it on and blessing oneself with it, morning and evening prayers (recommending the Rule of St Seraphim of Sarov of 3 Our FAther's and 3 Hail Mary's and I Creed, three times daily), the various times when one should make the Sign of the Cross and form one's fingers to give the lay blessing to food and everything else etc.

Anything else we're missing?

Alex

Dear AMM,

Actually, it IS possible that one Church is wrong and the other is right.

It would be IMPOSSIBLE for both to be wrong. In that case, so would the Gospel.

(There are both Orthodox and Catholics today who believe that the two are both the One True Church of Christ, even though they have yet to achieve full corporate reunion - I'm one of them).

For me, I have come to accept everything the Orthodox Church teaches, including what it teaches with respect to the Papacy.

However, where I am a schismatic in the eyes of Orthodoxy is my being in communion with Rome that a) teaches what is formally considered heresy by Orthodoxy and b) affirms a jurisdictionalism and non-Conciliar teaching authority (i.e. the Pope can affirm infallibly without a Council) that is at variance with how the Church of the first Millennium understood the role of the Petrine Minister.

But, heck, who said any of this would ever be easy? I could easily become a totally Latinized ECer, content to sit back and rave about how "heretical" the "Orthodox of today" are or an Orthodox who sees those in communion with Rome as being "misguided dupes of Roman triumphalist propaganda" (I've heard both terms in quotations).

Being an ECer having to walk a fine line at all times, being vulnerable to attack from the East and West at all times etc. - now THAT is living, Friend in Christ.

Alex
Oblatus in Spe

Alex, in my opinion basically everybody has private beliefs that directly conflict with one or more official teachings. So I have no issue with anybody doing such a thing.

Realistically if both are saying they are the one true church, which they both are doing, then at a minimum one is lying to its flock and is in error.

It is an inescapable reality.


Disagree, but that's a different thread.

For the record I think they're both wrong.

How 'bout the differences in the teachings on contraception and divorce?

How 'bout the difference between innovation and steadfastness to truth?

Alexandr

By that statement, you are denying that the Church of Christ exists on Earth , because the Church cannot be "in error".


A concerned Alexandr

That is so delightfully vague it is like ending a discussion over which movie is better with "well at least I don't kick puppies!"

Yes, isn't it! And I don't kick puppies! LOL!!

Alexandr

Dear Alexius,

O.K. the differences on contraception and divorce . . .

Let's see - the RC church officially condemns both, but, in practice, the majority of Catholics practice artificial birth control and are members in good standing because of their "invincible ignorance" (an RC canon lawyer who also happens to be a bishop told me this). And, in practice, thousands of Catholics get "annulments" of their marriage after psychological reports are submitted by psychiatrists telling the Tribunals that a couple should not have been friends, let alone marriage partners.

Is that the Catholic position you would like communicated to our young people - I've tried and this is what they've told me in response in ensuing discussions.

Orthodox praxis in both of these areas at least much more integrity than this (Catholic) travesty.

Alex

Thank you Dr Roman. Tak mudrie chelovek!

Alexandr

If there's a connection between a person and Christ, the church exists.

Maybe the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church or the Coptic Church or the Old Believer's or the Old Calendrist's or the Assyrian Church or the Armenian Church, etc. are each individually the "one true church" and the others are all false churches filled with people being led astray. Who'se to say.

Now to kick some puppies.

Dear Alexandr,

I agree with you totally - both Churches cannot be wrong. And if I come across as being "relativistic" from an Orthodox point of view, it is because I'm EC!

I don't want to get into the rightness or wrongness issue - only to explain why one side thinks the other is in the wrong and how we can respect that and still be friends, especially when there is a tradition of both EC and Orthodox Churches in one nationality - something that is foreign to both Russians and Greeks.

Then again, you fellows have it easy by comparison!

At the same time, as an EC, I have no hesitation in agreeing with you that Orthodoxy does not "innovate" and keeps to the ancient canons in a way that we Catholics do not.

Alex

But Andrew, the Church exists, physically on Earth as the Bride of Christ, not in some individualistic, touchy feely, New Wave sort of way, but as a real, corporal, entity. To believe otherwise is to leave behind the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Might I suggest Khomiakovs' "The Church Is One".

Alexandr