www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Savin' a buck

Everything has a value; I just don't think a private college education is worth $80,000. Sure you could work full time, and go to school full time, but it still wouldn't be worth you being that busy for that amount of time. Use a portion of that money to learn a trade, start your own business, gain experience in the area you want to work in. I know that some professions require a college degree and there is no way around it, but for most jobs out there, they'd prefer experience.

The advice I'd give to someone is to tell them they don't have to go to college to be successful. Some of the most successful people financially in the world didn't go to college. In fact, out of all my friends, the one who didn't go to college is making almost twice as much as the rest of us. If they do decide that college is still right for them, I'd suggest ROTC to make it as inexpensive as possible. That's the way my two brothers went.

Anywho, that's my anti-college rant, maybe I just went to the wrong one.

My brother's friend started as a high school computer hacker. Straight out of High School, The Sporting News hired him for $80,000.00+ per year. They then paid for him to get a computer degree while he worked there.

The best advice I ever got and didn't take was from my grandpa, "Eric Neil, go in to computers."

My advice would be to learn as much about everything as you possibly can. It is later than we think.

Alexandr

Some of the best colleges in the country are state colleges...maybe they are not as 'prestigious', their campuses not as postcard perfect, and the towns not always idealic, but their tuition is usually quite fair (it varies from state to state). I know that the University of Ct. and state university of New York both have excellent reputations in these neck of the woods.

Nathan's points about trade schools is a fair one. NOT everyone is cut out for a university degree or for corporate office work, and since so many are getting specialized business degrees these days, I can't even say that those who graduate college are necessarily 'educated', well rounded and well read people. (lest anyone contest me on this, this very thought came from an acqaintance, a professor, that used to be a university President).

Some of the most financially comfortable people lately are those who are in trades and have built up nice little businesses for themselves...nothing wrong with that! (..but I would still try to get some higher education before going this route.)

Alice

An interesting point, Alice. I used to agree with this, but I don't anymore.

A college education is not only for the knowledge; it is also for the experience of socialization with one's peer group. I don't mean the "experiences" of partying, etc. (although that can be part of it). I mean, instead, finding and joining the section of society one would be best suited for and learning how to get along with one's peers.

Now, if a parent want one's children to be (for example) in the upper classes, their children would need to go to college where the children of the upper classes go. Generally, those are the private, exclusive universities. Their exclusivity (based often on costs as well as academics) is purposeful -- to keep out the children of the middle classes and lower classes, so that the children of the upper classes can meet, learn to get along with each other, and generally form membership in the peer-group that they will be part of for the rest of their adult lives.

Another example could be arch-conservative Catholic colleges (such as Franciscan University and others like it). If a person wants to become part of the new arch- conservatives of Catholicism in the U.S., one of those colleges is the place to go.

The same can be said for the arts and sciences. Certain schools (like MIT or Embry-Riddle, etc.) are simply the best schools in the sicences or the arts.

Etc.

Some of those schools are technically public schools (for example, University of Michigan), but in cost and exclusivity they mimic private schools.

Again, they are worthwhile because the goal of private colleges is not just the data. It is also, perhaps especially, the peer group. They form it, socialize it, and get it ready to be the next generation. And they accept the children of the peer groups as legacies --both for business and for perpetuating the peer group. And it is these exclusive peer groups which lead their specific fields in society and society overall.

State schools can and do produce people who join the exclusive ranks of society, but that tends to be the exception not the rule. Nevertheless, it is a very useful way for American society to encourage class mobility and entry to the exclusive classes to those who are most able (regardless of the circumstances they were born into). Yet, once those folks join the exclusive ranks, they tend to follow the behavior pattern mentioned above.

So, what I'm saying is this: If you want just knowledge, a state university of can often equal a private college; some can even exceed private colleges. But, private colleges excel in socializing its students in their select peer-groups (whatever they are) which, in turn, will give them access to and membership among the leaders of those peer groups (or society overall). If getting your kids into a specific peer group is very important (upper classes, or traditional Catholic, or music or science or whatnot), private college is the way to go (in my opinion) for joining the peer group as well as getting the knowledge.

But, that opinion is just my two cents' worth.

-- John

I can agree, in certain ways. There are lots of people who aren't smart enough for college; and they shouldn't go. Other people should get some other kind of education: vocational or technical.

But those who are able should go to college, for three reasons.

First, college exposes people to a lot of different kinds of knowledge and experience. College isn't the whole universe of experience; it is mostly academic experience. But, that academic knowledge can and does introduce people to whole areas of work and knowledge and success that they may never have known about before. And that allows many people a better chance to fulfill their potential -- because they learn what all is out there in the world.

Second, college imparts advanced knowledge. It is the only place where certain kinds of knowledge can be acquired: in the arts, the sciences, the humanities, business, etc. Also, college educates a person with an advanced general education. Together, this helps a person know how the world got to be the way it is and how it works. And that can enable a person to profit in a variety of ways.

Third, college socializes its students with other potential leaders and successes in society. Yes, many successful people have never gone to college. But, increasingly, most successful people have gone to college. College, therefore, is the place for the future leaders and successes in society to meet and to learn how to get along with one another.

Of course, college isn't magic. It doesn't make a person instantly wise or rich. Some college degrees are only fully useful when supplemented by an advanced degree: a professional degree (in law, medicine, or business) or a PhD. Other degrees are useful right upon graduation. One has to apply a college education creatively and wisely after graduation.

Yet, the advantages of a college education and credential are so potential substantial that it should encouraged and used effectively.

My two cents.

-- John

Good point. Call me paranoid, but I'm determined to learn some skills that could come in handy if the US economy collapses due to dollar inflation, peak oil, plague, war, or whatever. I'd like to get a nice plot of land out in the country just in case...I better hurry though, because my grandpa would be the best teacher on how to do a little farming, and he's not getting any younger.

Anyways, back to the subject of college. A lot of you believe college is worthwhile. I will concede that in certain situations and for certain people it definitely is. I chose college because I wanted to work overseas someday, and maybe that still is God's plan for me if I work hard at it. I just recently did come VERY close to getting a position in the US Diplomatic Security. Maybe when the baby boomer start retiring (if they ever do ), the more desirable positions will start opening up.

My fellow graduates and I just seem to be a little bitter paying off those student loans while our lives begin to resemble Office Space a little more everyday, and my friends the plumbers, electricians, and construction workers are debt free and living in nice houses.

I'm really tempted to start a rant about how men aren't supposed to be sitting all day long in a small cubicle under fluorescent lights, but I'll hold my tongue.

I think I've been ranting so basically I wanted to say this:

College - I still think over-rated and too expensive, but is necessary for certain professions. Also, I would encourage if one feels it is necessary to go to public schools and if they don't mind the soldier�s life, join ROTC to help defer costs.

Good point John, I've never considered this, I'll have to give it more thought. One thing I would point out is that my experience in private college was that people grouped together along social lines. Even though we all made it into the same college, poor kids hung out with poor kids, rich kids with rich kids, black kids with black kids, and so forth.

The only time I ever became friends with and socialized with wealthy students was studying abroad in Russia where we were forced to hang out together. I really valued learning more about their lives in the upper class, they were great people. One had a nanny and went to an east coast boarding school from age 13, the other was the daughter of a prominent New York Lawyer and dabbled in paganism, Buddhism, and lived a very wild lifestyle in NYC.

There is a lot of truth in that paragraph, Nathan. Especially the part about the soldier's life . . . there's a lot of that in my family.

-- John

NATHAN:

Lots of good points made here and you've even made a good one yourself. There is always a need for a good plumber or electrician or roofing expert or contractor. My neighbor went into business for himself as a contractor after leaving a dead-end job. Three years later he has two employees working with him and has more work than he can handle.

BOB

Dear John,

Yes, socialization is important, and I definitely see your argument and have even favored it in the past, but, in my opinion, if one has no clear cut career goals that should be sending him to his favorite private college, is it really worth $120,000 (current college tuitions are $30,000 a year) of his parent's money, or student loans?!? Do you know how many young people today are committing suicide over those loans? In NYC, where salaries are among the highest in the nation, the average starting salary isn't more than $35,000 to $40,000, and housing is VERY expensive. That is why the trend here is for young people to live at home again. They don't make enough money to live alone, let alone get married in the near future, and with student loans, they may never have a future...all the while, dressing up in white collar and tie and working in a glamorous building. The whole scenario is getting ridiculous. That is why I am questioning the prudence of private colleges.

In New York, the college you send your child to is another status symbol akin to what car you drive, etc., and I find that whole consumer lifestyle thing we have been pushed into in many parts of this country a bit pathetic. Some kids KNOW what they want to be, and they should definitely try to go to the college that is best in that field, however, others are not great students, and don't know what they want to do in life.

By the way, the cost of education here is written about in Europe in the same way the cost of healthcare is...and in the same terms: excellent but way too costly.
Any EU citizen can go to any college or university (if they get in) throughout Europe for the same price we pay for a lower priced state university here in the U.S.. It never gets more expensive than that for undergraduates.

Alice

This discussion is something I wish I had overheard in high school.

Here is a link to an MSN Money article:

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/CollegeAndFamily/CutCollegeCosts/IsCollegeWorthTheMoney.aspx

It's called Is College Worth the Money?