www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Almost 90 years later

After almost 90 years, you think we would have got it by now, but NO we are still trying to define it.

Armenian Genocide resolution [news.bbc.co.uk]

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

It better be passed. I know people whose grandparents witnessed it in person.

It's actually the fault of the French and British. There would be no Turkey today, and the middle East would be Christian today if the west had not intervened in 1854.

Alexandr

I don't understand how it would be dismissed. I read a good memoir of a Protestant missionary who learned Arabic and Greek based Turkish and worked with the Armenians in addition to other communities from about a decade after the American Civil War. The story accounted from his diary was terribly sad.

Terry

Add to that the direct intervention of the British, French, and American governments in 1922-3 that led to establishment of the Kemalist republic that included a number that had participated in the atrocities. The three governments above along with the League of Nations made sure that the original treaty signed (The Treaty of Sevres) was discarded, and that the Treaty of Lausanne replace it. This led to the forcible relocation of the Christians from Asia Minor to Greece with not a penny in aid to help in the forced relocations and settlement of these poor people. It nearly brought about the collapse of the Greek Kingdom by bankrupting it. Greece took over a decade to finally settle all these refugees. Other examples can be given in how the American government refused to assist the Christians in Turkey during the period immediately after the war through to 1924.

What really surprises me is that the State Department archives document all these atrocities and yet because of some strange loyalty to the Turkish Republic, we are willing to officially side with that government in saying it did not happen for almost 90 years.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

And the Turks are talking about crossing the border into Iraq to deal with Kurdish guerillas. Obviously this is why President Bush want's to defeat the Bill.

Politics are involved. Turkey has threatened us, and we need its strategic location.

Hopefully the bill will be passed anyway, and the Turks won't do anything but eat crow..but one never knows with them.

In any case, they need to deal with their history just like other countries do.

This is an excellent and comprehensive history on the whole situation:

The title is: Turkey's Armenian Dilemma

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6386625.stm

Chickens always come home to roost.

The Turkish genocide-massacre of the Armenians (followed by the incredible murders of large numbers of Greeks, especially in Smyrna) are historical facts which Turkey, England, and France persist in trying to deny, excuse, or wish away. Armenians and Greeks continue to suffer the terrible effects of these horrors until the present day (do I hear the words "ethnic cleansing"?).

The Turkish claim that someone in Washington is trying to use the genocide of the Armenians to gain political advantage is absurd - it would be difficult, even impossible, to find so much as one US congressional seat where the Armenian vote is decisive.

Look at it this way: in 1910 the territory which is now Turkey had a population which was more than thirty percent Christian. Today the same territory has a population which is less than one percent Christian. Something happened, and it wasn't the "Rapture"!

Turkey claims to be a secular society - this no doubt explains why people walk the streets of Constantinople in Islamic dress with impunity and why the Muslim "call to prayer" is loudly audible all over the place, while it is forbidden for any Christian church (of the few remaining functioning churches) to post a sign on its own door or hold, God forbid, any sort of procession which might be visible to passers-by, and why it is forbidden for Christian clergy to dress as clergy in Turkey - and why it is apparently mandatory for Christian premises to display busts and portraits of Kemal Ataturk in prominent positions. It also no doubt explains why the Orthodox theological school at Halki remains closed, despite repeated appeals to open it . . . and on, and on.

South of Turkey is Syria, which does not claim to be "secular" and is certainly not a western-style democracy. Surprise: the Christian Churches function freely; the clergy dress recognizably; there are processions for the feasts - and the Christians are about twenty percent of the population, including much of the old city of Damascus, where it is a great pleasure to stroll about, visiting shrines and greeting people.

Fr. Serge

Fr. Serge and Fr. Anthony,

My knowledge of this chapter of history is shaky. Given all that the two of you posted, why did France, Britain and America support this, albeit (apprently) indirectly? Why not support the (Christian) Greeks and Armenians instead of the (Muslim) Turks? It doesn't make sense to me, but then again I don't know the international politics of that era very well.

-- John

John,

There was no indirect about it, but rather openly and direct. The answer then was money and influence by vying in the region to become the primary power source. Funny though, since the creation of the Kemalist republic the Turks have always seemed to manipulate the upper hand with the main players and have gotten their way by threats like we see now. The only thing the above powers do is to offer some sort of rhetoric in an attempt to save face and let the Turks get their way each and every time.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Turkey's swift reaction to the passage of the proposed bill by the Foreign Affairs Committee has started by recalling her Ambassador "for consultations" and military strikes against Kurds near and at Iraq's border!

A portent of things to come?

And Syria has also provided a safe haven for thousands of Iraqi Christians fleeing persecution in the new free Iraq. Christians are legally allowed to evangelize, and are on excellent terms with their Moslem neighbors. Interesting that Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan and Indonesia, all known for persecuting Christians, are NOT considered to be part of the Axis Of Evil, but Syria where Christians are not persecuted is.

They would not make a move so quickly over this matter if there was not more going on. They could be testing the diplomatic waters. They could also allow this rift to be the catalyst which aims their forces where they fall...It will be interesting to see what comes of this.

Fr. Anthony,

I really don't have much to add to what has been written. I'm encouraged by the above posts. What I can share is perhaps an unusual perspective for an Armenian. This is from a recent response to a message from a fellow Armenian who was up in arms about several leading Politicians who were petitioning the President to sink the initiative before it gets to a vote in the House. They are doing this b/c they think Turkey too great a political ally to risk offending. This was the reply to my Armenian Friend:


Actually what you sent me has no surprises for me... just good ole' fashion politics. If one looks to governments to be unfailing upholders of truth, one will inevitably be disappointed. Lets face it, many (if not most) politicians are not moral people. If they, for instance, believe killing millions of unborn babies every year is perfectly fine, why on earth are they going to worry about a genocide committed against a bunch of foreigners a century ago in a country on the opposite side of the earth???
The Church is the only institution charged and enabled to be unfailing upholder of truth. Governments are only concerned with governing their people in the most expedient way possible. A case can be made for the view that it is most expedient for the U.S. to avoid offending their strategic allies, the Turks.
I think the Church needs to canonize the many Armenians who preferred to die for Christ rather than to apostatize... just as was done with the Holy Innocents who were slaughtered by King Herod. The Israeli government (like Turkey) never apologized for that horrible, deliberate governmental slaughter. Yet the Church is not waiting and begging like dogs for recognition. It is enough for the Holy Orthodox Church of Christ to do the recognizing, as it did the Innocents, the Maccabees, and myriads of martyrs throughout the centuries. We need not wait for governments. Besides, governments come and go. The Church has been here since Christ established her and will endure until Christ's return. I think we need to shake off the victim mentality and embrace the celebration of the great Martyrs who now have received their glorious Crowns for being good and faithful servants. Of course, all of this is just my insignificant opinion. But even so, its how I see this.

Take care and God bless you,
Sdn. Ghazaros