www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall article about changing attitudes in the Catholic Church

Here is an article about changing attitudes in the Catholic Church.

http://www.newoxfordreview.org/note.jsp?did=1007-notes-sinking

The authors see these changes as negative, but I'm not so sure . . . For example, the number of Catholics is rising in the U.S. I suspect a lot of Catholics simply like being Catholic, regardless if they agree with all of the official teachings.

-- John

That's true but it is far from being unprecedented and does not fully justify the despair in saying "The Catholic Church in the U.S. is sinking like a stone."

The authors do not claim your provided quotes as full justification for their opinion. They have many many other points leading up to the conclusion you disagree with. In fact, the point most directly connected to their conclusion is that very few Catholics are highly committed to their Church. Their opinion is reasonable.

I should stress the "despair". I don't find them unreasonable except for that point.

John, I agree with Terry on this one.

The main point of the article seems to be that the Catholic Church in the U.S. is "sinking like a stone" because, ultimately, American Catholics don't accept Church leaders as the "locus" of their moral authority.

Yet, the vitality and vibrancy of a Church does not depend solely on how the membeship views the leadership. It has to do with what people believe about God, communion with God, communion with each other, the quality of their morals and worship, and so on.

So, on the one hand, lots of Catholic no longer firmly believe in the basic axioms of their faith: for example, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, or that abortion is a sin. This can be changed by better cathechesis and by better moral leadership by the priests.

On the other hand, the Catholic Church in America is growing in numbers. Yes, it loses many people to other churches or to no religious practice. Neverthless, it is growing: by births, immigration and conversions. It has thereby held constant its percentage of the American population (about 23 - 24%).

That is not the sign of a Church "sinking like a stone." That is a sign of Church which is growing and which needs firm, consistent, loving instruction --by word and by example-- by its leadership.

My two cents.

-- John

For what it's worth, the Church is not measured by numbers or statistics. Remember what St. John Chrysostom had to say:

"Thousands and thousands of people crowd the churches, and of those thousands only a few hundred understand what it is all about, and of those few hundred only a handful take that knowledge and achieve their salvation."

As a missionary priest once said at a retreat at my parish when I was very young, there are many who are "insurance policy Catholics." "If there is no God, they haven't wasted much with an hour a week in church. If there is a God, they think they can negotiate because they've paid their premium to get in."

The proof is in the pudding. We are called to be in communion with Christ and with His Church. And that means being in agreement or at least submission to ALL of the teachings that the Church proposes to us as being from Christ because Christ gave His Church authority to teach and spread His Good News to the ends of the earth.

That's why I cringe when I hear people say, "Well, MY FAITH is . . ." And I wonder to myself where the revelation for that sort of arrogance and disobedience comes from.

BOB

Friends,

I think you all make valid points.


I do not find it surprising that U.S. Catholics (Latin rite) would not be especially impressed by "Church leaders". In many, certainly not all, cases these alleged "leaders" are MIA. In fact they are leaders by definition only, i.e., they are not actually "leading", especially in their own proper sphere.

I wonder if there might not be some shifting of the numbers if, instead of "Church leaders" the poll used the phrase "John Paul II"?

If we take Vatican II's doctrine that all the baptized are called to the fullness of holiness as the correct answer; how many of the people polled (in any of the statistical phalanxes) would have been able to come close to that simple statement if asked "Why are you Catholic?"

What the Catholic people (K-99) need most, as John pointed out, is doctrine, Doctrine, and MORE DOCTRINE!

"Veritatem facientes in caritate" (doing the truth in charity).

Michael

Michael:

You might also list the fact that we have had two generations of Catholics educated with the error that "conscience trumps doctrine and dogma." The people who raised the storm over Humanae Vitae--the encyclical about artificial brith control--took that dissent as the opening salvo against all authority in the Church. Many of those trained since that time have been trained to give lip service to official teaching and their bishops, and to go their own way and do their own thing in day-to-day practice. That's why you have in this day bishops doing what was posted on Alexandr's thread about the San Francisco archbishop communing men who were obviously not eligible. This sort of thing goes on at the parish level and is maddening when one considers what message the young are really getting. These people think that they will attract the young with their shenanigans but they are giving the nonverbal message to so many that this whole thing is nothing to take seriously--and when they get off to college they don't.

BOB

Hi Bob,


I am impressed, though, that the Holy Spirit seems to be reaching the young folks by other means, a cause for hope, one of those means being the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite.

And on Fr. Zuhlsdorf's blog there are reports about Archbishop Ranjith and Msgr. Perl speaking very strongly about Bishops and priests who are trying to sandbag the measures of Summorum Pontificum "cooperating with the devil" to foil the reconciliation the Pope is seeking within the Church thereby. I don't think the "modernists" are finding many places to hide these days. Bishop Trautmann of Erie, having promulgated diocesan laws contravening the Pope's "liberating" provisions, seems to want to play "Martin Luther" just now. He seems like the type to fall on his sword.

So, the worm appears to be turning.

Michael

As one who works around "the young" on a daily basis, I think their elders are in for some shocks. These young people seem to be more conservative than their parents.