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Dec 29th, 2019
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They would not make a move so quickly over this matter if there was not more going on. They could be testing the diplomatic waters. They could also allow this rift to be the catalyst which aims their forces where they fall...It will be interesting to see what comes of this. Turkey practices 'bully' diplomacy.
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Did Turkey have a diplomatic switch-over after the majority party changed in their Parliament?
That may have had an effect on their reaction; the PM changed.
Too many people seem to be dismissive of the well documented history involved. Why is that? Just distance from the time and foreignness, that they have no relations involved?
Terry
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Alexandr said: It's actually the fault of the French and British. There would be no Turkey today, and the middle East would be Christian today if the west had not intervened in 1854.
I would just like for everyone to read Alexandr's rabid anti-Western sentiments. Just take a good hard look at it and tell me it doesn't ooze from almost every single one of his posts. Alexis
Last edited by Logos - Alexis; 10/13/07 06:51 PM.
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Does too.  Alexis
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Alexis,
I think you need to do a little reading before making any remarks concerning the situation. I would strongly suggest you start with the communications between our own State Department and our ambassador at the time of the genocide and the period thereafter with our High Commissioner who perfectly made his biases known and went to influence in any response in that region.
In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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Given all that the two of you posted, why did France, Britain and America support this, albeit (apprently) indirectly? Why not support the (Christian) Greeks and Armenians instead of the (Muslim) Turks?
For one thing, as far as the majority of US citizenry were concerned, the only real Christians are protestants.. that holds true even today, look at Iraq, Israel, Palestine..
Another is that these superpowers thought that a secular state is better than a Muslim Empire, despite Ataturks obvious totalitarian fascist mindset. They did the same when they installed Saddam Hussein in Iraq, although Hussein wasn't fascist.. Fascism had a rich powerful minority funding it, few royals from England, some elites from the US, and other powerful Euros helped bring about the fascist regimes..
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Just don't forget that politics is a total mess. Every country, including and most especially America, makes moral compromises almost every day. Leaders rationalize their decisions as saying it's for the good of all. Just look at our relations with Saudi Arabia. We know they are a totalitarian government, the ruling family does not tolerate dissention from any other political party or family, women are not allowed to drive, there are religous police that go around harasssing people doing things that people in the west do on a regular basis and we put up with it. Why? Because of oil, of course. Money makes the world go round. So we turn a blind eye to a country that would is considered one of the most intolerant countries in the world. Stories of white sexiual slavery are not exaggerated and people in our State Department know very well of the way the Saudi Royal Family and their supporters like their women, especially the color of their hair and eyes. (No, I'm not into conspiracy theories or aliens and people being kidnapped--these things happen daily, it's just covered up.)
But we turn a blind eye--because of oil and money. Politics--and there is nothing new under the sun. Just read history. From Rome, to Jerusalem, to Constantinople to Moscow to Washington, D.C. The more it changes, the more it stays the same. I dont mean to sound cynical, but most Americans have no idea of what is really happening in the world. We are have our heads buried so far in the sand it is ridiculous. Football? People will be happy to talk about it for hours. Reality tv shows that are so fake it is incredible? People will watch with rapt attention for hours. Talk about humans being killed? No one wants to know. Especially when it happened 90 years ago halfway across the globe in a place most people don't even know exist.
Quite sad.
Tim
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Garrett, it sure wasn't the Greeks and the Lebanese who rushed to Turkeys defense, but rather England and France. History is history. The facts cannot be changed. You are in school. Read up on the Crimean War.
As far as my posts oozing a "rabid anti-western" outlook, let me point out a few examples:
I have defended Pope Benedict as being a more consistent theologian than JP II, and have stated my admiration of him several times since he entered the picture. I have remarked on the great piety of the Polish Catholic people and especially the wonderful Monastery at Jasna Gora, and most recently I have called for the Catholic and Orthodox hierarchy to sit down together and discuss a common defense against both Islam and Western Secularism. Now if you mean to imply that my being opposed to Western Secularist thought and praxis is grounds for being called a rabid anti-westerner, than I stand guilty as charged. Let me ask you this Garrett, In your opinion, what do you think most non Americans would associate with America, Jesus Christ or McDonalds? Now take any backdrop landscape or caricature of Russia or Greece, and what do you see in the background? A Church. This is the difference Garrett.
Alexandr
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I know about the Crimean War, thanks.
And looking back on it, perhaps this particular post wasn't anti-Western in sentiment, but many of yours seem to be. You give it away in your last couple sentences. If you want to play word association games, when most people hear the word "Russia" I can guarantee you most of them automatically think "Communists/frozen desolation." When people hear "Greece," they think feta cheese and sun-bathed isles like Mykonos, which incidentally has quite a large gay scene. Romania = Ceaucescu. I'm not saying these things are RIGHT, but since you seem to place some sort of value on such gross generalizations as America = McDonald's, that's the only sort of response you should expect.
Yes, backdrop landscape in postcards is one thing...the reality quite another.
And do you think I'm a proponent of "Western secularist thought?" Clearly not, at least not when it contradicts Christian thought. It seems you've given away your own problem by just assuming that because I said "Western" I might mean "Western secularist thought." That betrays your frame of mind all the more.
Alexis
P.S. Father Anthony, Alexandr, etc: I sign my posts with "Alexis," which is my confirmation name, because I wish to be addressed as that in the public arena of this Forum. I sign my real name in personal messages because that is secure. I request that you abide by my wishes of allowing me, and not you, to be the one who determines by what name I am publically addressed, and I will accord you the same respect!
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Given all that the two of you posted, why did France, Britain and America support this, albeit (apprently) indirectly? Why not support the (Christian) Greeks and Armenians instead of the (Muslim) Turks?
For one thing, as far as the majority of US citizenry were concerned, the only real Christians are protestants.. that holds true even today, look at Iraq, Israel, Palestine..
Another is that these superpowers thought that a secular state is better than a Muslim Empire, despite Ataturks obvious totalitarian fascist mindset. They did the same when they installed Saddam Hussein in Iraq, although Hussein wasn't fascist [ . . . ] Interesting. Thank you for the response. That explains things. I found the following article at the Financial Times' wesbite this morning. It appears that Turkey's oligarchial military is very upset about the proposed Armenian genocide resolution. Hmmm. I (rhetorically) wonder aloud: Could it be that they are also very upset that this resolution could be read as a preliminary endorsement for . . . Kurdistan? . . . which, of course, would threaten the territorial integrity of modern Turkey. -- John Turkey-US military ties under threat By Vincent Boland in Ankara and Daniel Dombey in Washington http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/10bc2d56-7a7a-11dc-9bee-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1Published: October 14 2007 18:49 | Last updated: October 14 2007 18:49 Turkey�s most senior general warned on Sunday that military ties with the US would be severely damaged if the House of Representatives adopted a resolution labelling the massacre of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire as genocide. The warning comes amid signs that relations between Washington and Ankara are starting to unravel. General Yashar Buyukanit told Milliyet newspaper that the US had �shot itself in the foot� in its handling of the Armenian resolution, adopted by a House committee last week, and by failing to clamp down on the PKK Kurdish separatist movement in northern Iraq, which Turkey blames for the killings of at least 30 Turkish soldiers and civilians in the past two weeks. In comments broadcast on Sunday, Nancy Pelosi, US House speaker, reaffirmed that she intended to take the measure to a vote in the full House after its approval last week by the Foreign Affairs Committee. However, she declined to say whether she would press ahead if George W. Bush, the US president, told her that the issue could endanger US troops. �The president hasn�t called me on it, so that�s hypothetical,� she said. The non-binding bill calls on Mr Bush to �accurately characterise the systematic and deliberate annihilation of 1.5m Armenians as �genocide�. The US and Turkey, which have the two largest armies in Nato, have been close military allies since the 1950s, and military co-operation forms the basis of their diplomatic relations. Diplomats said any weakening of the military dimension to the relationship would have long-term repercussions for political and economic ties. �If this resolution that was passed in the committee also passes in the House, our military ties with the US can never be the same again,� Gen Buyukanit said in the interview, which was published yesterday. His comments were the first by Turkey�s influential military on the furore sparked by the Armenian genocide resolution and by Ankara�s threat to stage an incursion into northern Iraq to crush the PKK. The Turkish parliament is expected this week to approve such an operation, amid growing public and military pressure on the government to address forcefully the terrorism issue. At the weekend, Condoleezza Rice, US secretary of state, called on Ankara to use restraint as it contemplated military intervention. �I urged restraint; urged them to use the mechanisms that are available,� Ms Rice said on Saturday, referring to telephone conversations the day before with Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkish prime minister, Abdullah Gul, the country�s president, and Ali Babacan, foreign minister. Economic ties between Turkey and the US have already taken a direct hit from the issue. The Turkish-US business council, which promotes bilateral economic ties, has cancelled a conference on investing in Turkey due to be held in New York this week, and the country�s trade minister has pulled out of a US trip to coincide with the event.
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