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America is such a different place! By contrast, when my wife and I attended evening Vespers at Alexander Nevsky Cathedral in Paris a few years ago, a young woman in a spaghetti-strapped black evening gown was turned away at the door by ushers and a priest, forbidden to enter (bare shoulders). She took it in stride, too, and didn't challenge them.

Jim #257540 10/19/07 02:11 PM
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Good for them! I say again, American bishops will be judged in the next life, if not in this one. I would ask that we pray for a conversion of hearts for those who are morally confused. I don't see this as a fault of the Church, but a fault of man that will remain disordered from one point or another.

The microcosm of the Church as lived by its members is but a blot to the infinite glory of the wonders of Heaven. Let's not be too caught up with trouble. Trouble will always be with us until the church stops ordaining human beings.

Terry

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John, let's still talk about this in private.
Joe

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I agree with you wholeheartedly. it is ironic when these folks in San Francisco are more sex centered than Christ centered, it is plain to see, and then critics of these people are seemingly not too Christ centered in their critique of homosexuality. let me explain before any one out there in cyberland works themselves up into a state: in Chattanooga, there is a mainline church that is open and affirming of Gays, Lesbians, etc. there are many of those folks who have joined who have because their homosexuality was made an issue in their former churches, now they belong to a church that has focused on accepting these folks because of their sexuality first and foremost, am I getting through? one extreme is not countered by an other extreme. I do not pretend to know what the answer is to overcoming sexual feelings that many hold that very arguably contradict Scripture and Church teaching. no more acceptable is the sacrilegious burlesque that the sisters of perpetual indulgence are making of the sacred than is having a coniption over Gays and Lesbians.the passage in Ezekiel that refers to Sodom and Gomorrah discuss that those cities were lacking in social justice. the account in Genesis refers to the attempted gang rape of two male angels. Scripture interprets Scripture. let's seek a balance, people.
Much Love,
Jonn

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I really don't know if I can become an Orthodox Christian --or any kind of Eastern Christian-- anymore. What seems to matter most to Eastern Christians is the liturgy, tradition, relations with the Roman Catholics, obscure points of theology . . . and hating the gays. It's bizarre. And there are more important things to me than this.

-- John

Dear John,

With all due respect, and you know that you are one of my favorite posters here, don't you think that *maybe* you are over reacting--just a teenee weenee bit? smile

I assure you that this is not the topic of conversation in any Orthodox church I have ever socialized in! wink

Regards,
Alice


Alice #257552 10/19/07 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Alice
Quote
I really don't know if I can become an Orthodox Christian --or any kind of Eastern Christian-- anymore. What seems to matter most to Eastern Christians is the liturgy, tradition, relations with the Roman Catholics, obscure points of theology . . . and hating the gays. It's bizarre. And there are more important things to me than this.

-- John

Dear John,

With all due respect, and you know that you are one of my favorite posters here, don't you think that *maybe* you are over reacting--just a teenee weenee bit? smile

I assure you that this is not the topic of conversation in any Orthodox church I have ever socialized in! wink

Regards,
Alice

I have to say too that outside of forums, this is not something that most Christians spend much time obsessing about.

Joe

Alice #257557 10/19/07 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Alice
Quote
I really don't know if I can become an Orthodox Christian --or any kind of Eastern Christian-- anymore. What seems to matter most to Eastern Christians is the liturgy, tradition, relations with the Roman Catholics, obscure points of theology . . . and hating the gays. It's bizarre. And there are more important things to me than this.

-- John

Dear John,

With all due respect, and you know that you are one of my favorite posters here, don't you think that *maybe* you are over reacting--just a teenee weenee bit? smile

I assure you that this is not the topic of conversation in any Orthodox church I have ever socialized in! wink

Regards,
Alice

Dear Alice:

With all due respect to you, (and you're one of my favorite posters), I do not think John is overreacting.

Ryan

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Ryan,

So you think that he should NOT become Orthodox because one or two Orthodox discuss these matters on an internet forum, even though in all my years I have NEVER heard these conversations in any Orthodox church, bible study, sunday school, Orthodox fellowship, catechism, coffee hour or other social or ministirial venue of my Church in any part of the country, or even OUTSIDE of this country?!?@?

Alice

Father Anthony: I believe that this thread has officially gone OFF topic.

Alice #257559 10/19/07 02:47 PM
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The Internet world is not reality. One of the primary reasons I am and remain Orthodox is the people in my parish.

AMM #257561 10/19/07 02:54 PM
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I am just as outraged by the antics of the abortionists, the greedy corporations, lack of health care, etc...

I just comment to the threads written.

I believe that Alexandr did post a thread about the outrageous markup of drugs in Town Hall. So we all do post about various injustices. Certain topics are more inflammatory than others.

I don't think Pfizer is trying to get the Pope drawn up on charges of violating human rights at the Hague though.

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Something occurred to me. I think that the ideal thing that the Bishop could have done in this situation would be to politely refuse them communion but offer a blessing to them instead. Our Lord said, "Bless those who curse you..."

Joe

Alice #257567 10/19/07 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Alice
Ryan,

So you think that he should NOT become Orthodox because one or two Orthodox discuss these matters on an internet forum, even though in all my years I have NEVER heard these conversations in any Orthodox church, bible study, sunday school, Orthodox fellowship, catechism, coffee hour or other social or ministirial venue of my Church in any part of the country, or even OUTSIDE of this country?!?@?

Alice

Father Anthony: I believe that this thread has officially gone OFF topic.

Dear Alice:

I was not as careful as I should have been in reading the particular portion of John's comments you quoted. I don't believe he's overreacting in pointing out that homosexuality is singled out for particular scorn in a way that's troubling. On the other hand, I would hope that this issue does not prevent his entry into the Ortodox Church.

Ryan

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Well, we know that homosexual activity is a sin (pretty obvious given the feedback here) and being orthodox (note my small 'o')Christians, I would like to know if we're judging the homosexuals and if there is any thing we can do to get them back on track. Being human, they're God's children just as we are. So i wonder what are we doing to make them feel at home in Church.

Of course, I'm not asking that we become liberal like how the Episcopal Church has become, but pastorally, how has the Church responded to making the homosexuals feel to be a part of the Church without compromising on its stance that homosexuality is a sin. Lets love the sinner and hate the sin.

For the record, I'm not gay. Hehe.

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I"ve been following this post and some of the other posts similar to this one for some time now. I have to agree that there are much bigger sins that homosexuality to get worked up about. One of the reasons the people in San Francisco act this way towards the Catholic Churches is because of the way members of the Catholic Churches react to them. The last few posts have been closer to the solution--not overreacting and making the matter worse. Vilifying someone who is doing something they do not see as a sin or wrong is going to turn them away quicker than anything. Reaching out to them and trying to find some common ground, such as the post from Chattanooga, is the only possible way to reach them.

Do I agree with what they do? No. Do I think they should be given communion when they are dressed that way? No. Should the Bishop or priest or whomever is involved with this "mass" answer to a direct higher power NOW, not in the afterlife? Yes, most definitely. This should not be allowed. It is a mockery of what Christ did for all of us. God allows us the freedom to accept or reject him. They are showing exactly what their choice is by their actions. But we also need to accept or reject Christ's sacrifice. Vilifying accomplishes nothing. The "clowns" in San Francisco will never know about it and even if they did, it would only make them happy---knowing they have gotten under your skin. Feel sorry for them. Pray for them. But screaming and yelling will do no good and only raise blood pressure.

I don't understand why someone in the Diocese has not done something about the priest and religious people involved. Allowing them to dress and act this way is not approaching the lord with a proper heart or attitude. And they are committing a sin by accepting that communion. I would imagine the priest or Bishop giving them the host is also committing a sin somehow. I would prefer as little Vatican involvement in things as possible. But there has to be something on a local, regional or national level that can be done. Unless, as one poster has suggested, too many of the other Bishops are also guilty and don't want to open a can of worms. If that is true, then there's not much hope for Catholicism in the U-S.

I've heard from several priests that the Curia has pretty much written off the U-S and most of Western Europe. We are beyond redemption as far as they are concerned. We are just too corrupt. Maybe events such as this kind of proves their point.

Tim


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Originally Posted by Athanasius The L
Originally Posted by Alice
Ryan,

So you think that he should NOT become Orthodox because one or two Orthodox discuss these matters on an internet forum, even though in all my years I have NEVER heard these conversations in any Orthodox church, bible study, sunday school, Orthodox fellowship, catechism, coffee hour or other social or ministirial venue of my Church in any part of the country, or even OUTSIDE of this country?!?@?

Alice

Father Anthony: I believe that this thread has officially gone OFF topic.

Dear Alice:

I was not as careful as I should have been in reading the particular portion of John's comments you quoted. I don't believe he's overreacting in pointing out that homosexuality is singled out for particular scorn in a way that's troubling. On the other hand, I would hope that this issue does not prevent his entry into the Ortodox Church.

Ryan


I've PMed / emailed a couple of you privately, but I thought I should make a little post here. I'm going to take a break frm the Forum for a while, maybe permanently. This issue has so disturbed my inner composure that I must take a break. Also, I'm scheduled to be Chrismated into the Orthodox Church on 6 January (Theophany), and I have to re-evaluate whether I will go through with that. I'm not even gay crazy but I am fed up with how this issue comes up so frequiently at this forum, and generates so much anger and hate, when Jesus said we are to love one another. So, I'm going to decide is maybe another form of Christianity is better suited for me. To my friends, thank you and God bless. To my enemies, thank you and God bless you too. Be well.

-- John

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