www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Here we go again! (SSA)

Glory to Jesus Christ!

As someone who has recently returned to the Church and who is himself recovering from SSA myself, I think I can speak to this.

I don't think it's ever good NOT to encourage someone who is suffering from SSA to live celibately. As long as someone is carrying the burden of SSA, they will not be marrying anyone. That means that they (like any single person) are obligated to live celibately. While I believe it's possible for someone to shed the mask of SSA and begin living a heterosexual life, I have known enough self-professed homosexuals for whom that tendency to engage in that type of inappropriate behavior is so strong and is so deeply seated that such an expectation is probably unrealistic for a large portion of them.

Courage, to my understanding, provides help and guidance in fulfilling that obligation and overcoming SSA temptations.

I don't see how Courage could ever be not "good" for anyone. Courage is "good" for anyone suffering from SSA, but It may not be ultimately successful in assisting everyone to overcome their temptations and live chastely. I wish there were more options available (such has therapy) but, as the mainstream psychologists have abandoned us in the name of politics, there are not many other options available.

People with SSA need our intense prayers. But the Church needs to stand firm on what She knows is true. From my own experience, believe it or not, it was the Church's steadfast and continuous teaching that the behavior itself was wrong that led me home. Simply put, it compelled me to confront the truth and make a choice for God.

I wish you well, dude.GOD bless you.
Much Love,
Jonn

Britt,

I also wish you well, and am praying for you.

Regarding therapy, Fr. Benedict Groeschel is a psychologist, based in NY, and a solid Catholic priest. He has mentioned offhand on some of his programs that he is aware of a number of people with SSA, and their heroic struggles to live their faith. If you haven't already, you may want to contact him about therapy, because at the very least he should know of therapists who have not abandoned those with SSA.

God bless you,
Michael

Dear Britt,


As a Moderator I have observed how again and again, anyone who has a viewpoint that is not politically correct on this particular issue, may bear the wrath of some here.

I often wonder if political leanings have more to do with this than anything else....Therefore, I would like to thank you for your frank and honest postings and for putting a religious perspective on your experience.

We all have struggles and crosses to bear in our fallen state, some more than others...Contemporary society puts great temptations in all our paths, distorting our core religious beliefs of what is morally right and wrong. We need to uplift each other and carry each other.

May God bless you!

In Christ,
Alice, Moderator

Thank you, and everyone else as well.

There is no recognized clinical term "SSA" It is a political buzzword.

I have known people in Courage. Some are given that gift of celibacy and it does work for them but I have also seen others who go through the insidious pattern of "acting out" and being miserable in Courage and have finally found, yes, happy and loving gay relationships.

What I am most proud of in the Orthodox and Catholic traditions is that we do not ask people to go through the horrible "ex-gay" programs like some Protestant groups. These programs have destroyed so many lives. Our Churches, despite their many failings in this area are light years ahead of these other groups.

Britt, God bless you on the path that God has shown you!!

Then those people are outside the pale of the Church and sacramentally cut off from grace. This is not a good thing. WHether they are ACTUALLY devoid of grace is not for anyone but God to judge. I fail to see your justification for saying Courage is good for some and bad for others and I suspected your answer would be similar to what you have said. There is no excuse for a practicing Catholic or ORthodox CHristian, or a Christian of any stripe for that matter, to acquiesce in their own moral failures. I understand that some are caught up in the cycle of acting out. I know men like this. But they have not abandoned the teaching of the Church to justify their sin. They continue to go to confession for what they do and they continue to take the Eucharist with a clean conscience, something utterly impossible to do without repentance from this sin. I dont care how "happy" or "loving" their relationships are, they are OBJECTIVELY disordered and sinful.

And, this is not my opinion. What I have said above is the universal teaching of Christianity. If one doesnt accept it, then they are not in grace. Sorry, but that's the way it is. THere is no room for argument on this issue.

I've been attending Courage for years and I have seen everything. From amazing conversions to heterosexuality ending in heterosexual dating and marriage to people coming into a courage meeting to cruise. While I appreciate the tolerance some people on this forum extend to those of us who STRUGGLE with SSA, I myself have very little tolerance for those with SSA who wish to change Church teaching or maintain a relationship in the chuch itself. This is utter blasphemy and I wish those who live in such a way would either repent or get out of the Church and find some place in a dark closet to do their wickedness.

I don't often speak out on this publicly but I could see where this thread was going (the original thread) and I've been fuming for a while. But someone dissing the formal teaching of the church and treating it with contempt as though it's a throwaway package was the last straw. Either repent or get out.

Jason

Jason:

Your candor and openness are admirable-as is your subjecting yourself to the wisdom of Holy Scripture and the Church. The problem I have with statements like "This is utter blasphemey and I wish those who live in such a way would either repent or get out of the Church and find some place in a dark closet to do their wickedness" is the lack of consistency with which SOME people apply that principle. When heterosexual sins, as well as a whole host of other sins that are at least as destructive as homosexual acts, are condemned with the same vigor with which SOME people condemn homosexuality, then I will find statements such as "either repent or get out" far easier to accept. The reason why I have used SOME in all caps twice is to emphasize that I realize that there is a spectrum of reasons why people speak out about homosexuality. Some speak out because of bigotry or the desire to make themselves think that their sins are not serious, when compared to the evils of homosexuality. On the other hand, there are those who are far more even-handed in speaking out against sin, and they speak out against homosexuality out of concern for the spiritual welfare of those who commit homosexual acts-just as they would speak out against any other sin out of concern for the spiritual welfare of sinners.

Ryan

It would be presumptuous to assume that one person or another person is even-handed in their treatment of sin or if they are inconsistent, especially in a forum like this. So much is lost when we cannot look each other in the eye and hear the subtle shifts in our voices. We don't know their hearts as fully as possible and words can be bent. There is a need of purity for each person in his own station. We must be mindful of God's ways in the decisions of our behavior and practice a carefulness of thought and listen to wisdom. That is why I enjoy reading the Fathers; they had wise perceptions that force us to orient our thoughts to what is right and wrong, to Scripture and to wisdom.

Terry

That is why I often am concerned and speak out about the 'hook up' lifestyle of today's heterosexuals, which is just as much a pushed 'agenda' in today's cultural landscape as the homosexual agenda.

Just about EVERY show or movie I watch involves some form of non-marital sexual relations...this is a temptation for all warm blooded heterosexuals, just as much as today's climate of over acceptance of the gay lifestyle is for those who are inclined that way.

In my parent's generation, there were often those men of middle age who had never been married, and were celibate. It was not an abnormal thing then. Today, these men would most probably question themselves and even if their inclinations were not homosexual, they might very well become homosexuals or atleast be labeled as 'gay'.

These are difficult times, because today's strongest idol god is one of hedonism and pleasure.

Again, I say that we all need to lift up each other in faith and prayer. Our young people in high schools, colleges, and in their twenties, need it the most, because society has spoon fed them an obsessive pre-occupation with sexuality of every type.

In Christ,
Alice, Moderator

"Society has spoon fed them an obsessive pre-occupation with sexuality of every type."

All I can say is Amen! (Academia too.)

I for one condemn every notion that anyone can mock God and live out his/her ___fill in the blank___ fantasies. The promotion of any abnormally sinful behavior as normal or even good is an affront to all we hold dear.

Well, the subject of this thread is very specifically homosexuality. So, I hope it is clear that it is as someone who struggles with homosexual temptation that I spoke as I did. I assure you, were the topic heterosexual sin, I would speak just as vigorously. I thought the subject matter was clear enough not to cause any confusion.

Jason

Not quite. Here's a word from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese [goarch.org]:


Celibacy is the norm for all non-married Christians in Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, regardless of one's attractions or inclinations. The Byzantine tradition probably stands alone in emphasizing some self-restraint and celibacy within marriage. Alice wrote eloquently on the difficulty in living in chastity -- let alone sexual purity -- in today's society, for homosexuals and heterosexuals.

God bless you, Britt, for trying to walk this narrow but illuminating path. May He strengthen you, surround you with His holy angels, comfort you with His never-failing presence, and bring you to His everlasting Kingdom.

---------
Western Orthodoxy Blog [westernorthodox.blogspot.com]

As a priest to a psychiatric hospital I am very much aware that for many there is absolutely no process by which sexual orientation can be changed by human means. Therefore those who are homosexual must not be taught that change of orientation is a certain possibility.It is only a slight possibility. Making this clear will stop homosexuals looking for such a change of orientation being harmed if it is not achieved. In my professional work it has been my experience that change of orientation has only occurred when the person concerned has been inclined towards heterosexuality as well as homosexuality.Tremendous harm has been done by groups telling a homosexual that there are programmes that will most certainly change their orientation. It only works sometimes so please always make this very very clear to those thinking of such a programme. The Church giving such high powewered attention to homosexual matters is preventing it from addressing other issues in our time which Our Lord would want us to address to remove much harm and suffering in the world such as greed and financial gain at all costs and appauling business ethics we find widespread. But sex sex sex seems to be the only issue and I am thoroughly weary with hearing about it all the time. Your absolutely right many ex gay programmes have ruined people and that has no place in the Christian Church.We have to make it very clear that The Church does not condemn homosexual orientation in itself....only giving it certain physical expression. Lots of present literature seems to suggest it is even sinful to have the orietation and that is causing grave harm. So all Church people need to be very careful what they say and how they say it and how they say it.