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Dec 29th, 2019
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Catholic Gyoza Member
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The simple truth is whomever eats or drinks unworthily eats and drinks his own condemnation whether he may be a layman, deacon, priest, bishop or pope... QED
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Deacon Richard, This is a puzzle. is it possible to be a chaste gay?
Ed Yes: do not have gay sex, do not masturbate, and have clean thoughts. Then why call them *gay*? Ed
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Deacon Richard, This is a puzzle. is it possible to be a chaste gay?
Ed Yes: do not have gay sex, do not masturbate, and have clean thoughts. Then why call them *gay*? Ed If someone finds the same sex sexually attractive that means that they are gay. But like what Father Deacon said, the ones in courage try not to call themselves gay.
Last edited by Zan; 10/29/07 02:55 AM.
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Dear Ed,
I am going to have to back up Deacon Richard and Zan here. It is possible for a person to lead a chaste and celibate life. First, one has to be called to such a life. In exercising this calling, especially for one in the vocation of the priesthood, it requires a number of things to make sure that one does not become prey to temptation, either heterosexual or homosexual. One of which is a disciplined life of prayer and activity in one�s ministry. Another being that they have a support system and a way of being held accountable for their time and activities. Other ways can be suggested.
To state that a person whatever their sexual persuasion must act of their urges and desires then makes us no better than the animals. Discipline and self-control has been practiced in the virtue of chastity for ages. It is modern society that makes us believe that something is abnormal when we do not act out sexually.
If we truly believe what is given to us in scripture, then we would not act in ways of promiscuity. For some it is more of a battle than others. But, chastity can be achieved if it is strongly desired and fostered. I for one have been living in such a life for well over 20 years now. I know of many others that also are living such a life. Chastity is an achievable goal if only we let God work with those that are called to this state. For those that are not blessed in the bonds of marriage, that would include them also, no matter what persuasion they are.
In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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Thank you, Father Anthony.
Your reply is good instruction. I am pleased that both homosexuals and heterosexuals are BOTH called.
My Catholic fiend is in a dilemma. He wants to receive communion but understands that his lifestyle prevents him from it. However, Catholic priests who live the same lifestyle still receive and say mass. I should note that he is not militant or demands some sort of justice on this double standard. He keeps to himself. Interesting enough, he has helped bury Catholic believers when their own families (who have fallen from the church) failed to give them a proper church burial. He paid for their funeral himself. Sad though that the person's family, who ARE practicing Catholics, did show up to make claims on the deceased person's belongings. I felt so sorry for him over this that I took him shopping after the funeral, bought a case of beer, and drank with him that night and giving him a chance to b**ch about it all.
Ed
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I would think that a great number of masses through the centuries were performed by priests in mortal sin. If a priest in an isolated village were to fall from grace how could he reasonably deprive his parishioners of the holy sacraments the following Sunday while he journeyed to a neighboring priest to receive absolution.
I understand that ideally no priest ever sins on Saturday night, but I dont believe its realistic.
The gay priests err greatly if they perform mass in a state of sin, but refusing to say mass early Sunday morning would cause a stir and scandal as well. Isnt that why the church determined the sanctity of the minister does not affect the validity of the sacrament?
As far as a chaste person ceasing to be gay I would think that would be like saying an alcoholic ceases to be one the day he quits drinking.
Homosexuals are called to chastity the same as heterosexuals, but will still be despised and detested whether they commit any sins or not.
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As far as a chaste person ceasing to be gay I would think that would be like saying an alcoholic ceases to be one the day he quits drinking. ... or even after years of sobriety. I think there are a number of parallels between alcoholism and homosexuality, but there are also some important differences. For one thing, the term "alcoholic" was popularized by the founders of AA as a word to designate people who have a real problem with alcohol, but are trying to stay sober (i.e. admitting to being an alcoholic is an essential step to recovery), whereas the term "gay" is embraced by active homosexuals as a word to identify themselves and their behavior, promoting the latter as acceptable and honorable. Homosexuals are called to chastity the same as heterosexuals, but will still be despised and detested whether they commit any sins or not. That would depend a great deal on their outward behavior. There are a number of gays who successfully keep their private life private because they know how to act like everyone else and fit in. It would seem that those who were previously unable to do so would be motivated to learn after committing themselves to chastity. Peace, Deacon Richard
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I don't want to pick on the Catholic Church, but a friend who is Catholic just came out of the closet. He no longer goes to church even though he was the church choir director and music minister for years. He is not a drag queen nor does he flaunt his choice in sexuality. His life is a private affair. He is still deeply in love with his Catholic religion and still keeps his faith in Jesus, the respect of the Eucharist, and many ethical teachings in other regards. But for him he has chosen a lifestyle after much hardships that I cannot publicize. I sensed he was having a 'turn' in his orientation a few years ago, but never directly asked him about it. We parted our ways for other reasons, and lately I have caught up with him. He finally admitted to being gay. I was let down because I knew he chose that lifestyle after hardships I was privy to over the years. When I first met him he was a womanizer. But something clicked between then and now.
He cannot receive communion because he choses a lifestyle and will not give it up. He later bought a house with his partner and has become quite a successful person in his work. But he has confided in me several times his distraught about not being able to receive communion. But he knows Catholic priests who are also actively gay, their bishops know of their situation, and they not only continue to receive communion, the most sacred thing in the Catholic religion, but are also able to say mass, something my friend cannot even participate in even as a music minister.
Ed Ed--It is patently silly that he CANNOT participate as a "music minister" at a Catholic parish. The Church, throughout it's history has used and employed (and continues to do so today) many people who were known to be gay as composers, arrangers, leaders of choirs, cantors, and performers of sacred music as well as creators of art and architecture. Musical worship and many church buildings would be much poorer if it was not for these people who have enhanced worship and used their talents for the glory of God. Attend any NPM conference if you doubt me. John
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I have also seen articles in print (wish I could remember where and when!) in which Catholic priests insisted on calling themselves "gay" while at the same time affirming their commitment to living chastely. Does anyone know why someone would want to do that? Deacon Richard, This is a puzzle. is it possible to be a chaste gay? Ed, I should think it would depend on how one chooses to define both words. For example someone could define "chaste" for themselves in terms of homosexual monogamy, etc. I once heard Fr. Thomas Hopko say that homosexuality is simply one form of stunted psycho-sexual development (or something to that effect), which I think is one of the most insightful things I've heard on the subject. If this is true, then it is never too late to resume the process of maturation in this area. Chastity is, after all, more than merely a condition of "not doing something"--it is a virtue, in which one either grows or declines. I would go so far as to say that the perfection of chastity is the perfection of psycho-sexual development. That's why I am suspicious of someone choosing to hang onto the "gay" label--it suggests that this may be a "stuck" point for them, inhibiting additional growth and increasing the risk of falling back. Peace, Deacon Richard
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Ed,
In reading through this series a couple of thoughts came to mind. First, there is some lack of precision in how your formulated your thesis. A person can be homosexual, i.e., have strong sexual attraction toward other members of the same sex, without acting on this attraction. If that is the case, there is nothing to prohibit one from receiving communion.
Should one act out on these desires the mystery of confession will allow one to receive communion. The Donatist Controversy addressed the issue of the personal holiness of the priest and the efficacy of his ministry. While it is certainly deplorable to have an active homosexual priest (or deacon or bishop) that does not mitigate the mysteries since they are the action of Jesus himself working through the priest.
It is true that one who is not in a state of grace should not receive communion, it is rare that one would be denied. Such a person, whether lay or cleric, does so, however, at grave risk to their soul.
Fr. Deacon Ed
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Should one act out on these desires the mystery of confession will allow one to receive communion. The Donatist Controversy addressed the issue of the personal holiness of the priest and the efficacy of his ministry. While it is certainly deplorable to have an active homosexual priest (or deacon or bishop) that does not mitigate the mysteries since they are the action of Jesus himself working through the priest. If a priest is an *active* homosexual, but makes use of the mystery of confession, then when does this cycle become an abuse? Someday, the constant return to a homosexual lifestyle/activity will have to be challenged. Imagine this. A heterosexual married man has an affair. His wife is loving, but forgives him. He has another affair and is found out. His wife eventually forgives him again. Then the married man has another affair. How many times should this man's wife forgive and forget? I though confession in the Catholic Church was a step towards metanoia, a change of heart. But if a homosexual priest is forgiven in this sacrament and then continues to return to active homosexuality, what should be done? Ed
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Imagine this. A heterosexual married man has an affair. His wife is loving, but forgives him. He has another affair and is found out. His wife eventually forgives him again. Then the married man has another affair. How many times should this man's wife forgive and forget? Didn't Someone once say something about forgiving seventy times seven ?
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I though confession in the Catholic Church was a step towards metanoia, a change of heart. But if a homosexual priest is forgiven in this sacrament and then continues to return to active homosexuality, what should be done? Ed, I think what you're asking about here really is the mystery of sin. It seems very dramatic when we take a glaring sin like homosexuality but what about something like pride or lying? We dont have to go to confession for EVERY sin but we do have to repent of every sin. Meaning not all sins qualify for the confessional but every sin requires forgiveness. I am quite familiar with your line of thinking as it is one that I have shared for a very long time. It runs like this: if someone says they are sorry and repent then eventually they will quit doing the thing for which they have repented. We want to think that those who do not stop sinning are using the confessional as a justification. And perhaps there are some who are guilty of this. But by and large I have come to think that there is much more to the reality of sin in our lives than we care to recognize. Sin is real and it is real in all of our lives. When we consider this it appears that there really isnt much to the aforesaid line of thinking since we never really give up all our sins. Everyone of us has some sin that we cherish, even if we dont even realize it. We are loath to let it go. God does work many wonders in breaking the bonds of our sins throughout our lives, but few see the result of all their sins being taken care of before death. THus the universal teaching of the Church of purification after death. So what if one mans sin is glaring and ours may not be? Let us be as forgiving of others as we are of ourselves. Jason
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Ed,
I think the matter goes beyond the priesthood: how often should anyone be forgiven?
Confession of sin is as much a sign of renunciation and desire for forgiveness as it is medicinal. For deeply rooted sins, it may take many confessions and communions to eliminate its power over the penitent.
That said, any sin committed with a view to going to confession afterwards is compounded by the grave sin of presumption, which then also becomes something to confess. No one should abuse the merciful heart of the Father in such a way.
God bless,
Gordo
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I'll just add that many passions are difficult to overcome, especially in today's world. For a significant number of men, the passion of lust is difficult to overcome because our society is saturated with the erotic. What Gordo says is correct that for some deeply rooted passions, multiple confessions and communions are needed. And no one but God really knows the full truth about anyone's heart. That being said, we can, and ought to make progress in the spiritual life. But the fathers also warn us that once one passion is conquered, the demons are at hand to rouse up another, especially pride.
Here is something that I think is helpful in discerning whether we are repentant or not. Take two persons who habitually fall into some sin, let's say a sin of lust since that is what we have been talking about. The unrepentant one takes his sin lightly, feels little or no remorse, and probably doesn't even bother to go to confession, or if he does, he doesn't confess the sin because he doesn't think it is a big deal. The other man feels deep and severe anger at himself and sorrow each time he sins. He resolves in his mind that he won't ever do it again. He makes a good confession. He puts up resistance for a few days (or weeks or months). But eventually, his passions become very strong and he succumbs. And so the cycle goes on...
The latter person I think is a repentant man, but he is weak and still trapped in the passions. And so it may take many years of ascesis for him to attain freedom.
Joe
Joe
Last edited by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy; 11/02/07 12:33 PM.
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