www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West St. Alexis of Wilkes- Barre

I wonder what Father Toth would say about the Church presently. For those who don't know who he is, here's a link:

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Alexis_of_Wilkes-Barre

P.S., I attended an OCA altar consecration yesterday. Raymond Mastroberte, who I believe is a member here, wrote a number of new Icons for the parish. One of them was of St. Alexis. Very beautiful work!

http://members.tripod.com/~stcyrils/origin/

Read more still.

I think history has shown us what he would do...return to Holy Orthodoxy. It was here that he was able to preserve our traditions and not be forced to latinize or follow the forced implementation from Rome or the bishop.

Those Who Forget History Are Doomed to Repeat It. -- George Santayana

George Santayana: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

We may be remembering the past a little bit differently in this department. I don't think the advocating of schism serves anyone well.

And I am not 100% certain that his move could be said to have preserved "our people's traditions". The handful of OCA parishes I have attended of likely Rusyn origin were thoroughly Russified.

That's true I fear, the parishes that followed Father Toth, lost most of their latinizations, only to have them replaced by russifications by the hierarchy that accepted them into Orthodoxy.

While this was true at the time, many of the OCA parishes now have recovered some of their Rusyn identity. Some use prostopinije, use the trojca, etc. They know they aren't Russians. Most OCA church signs say Orthodox instead of Russian Orthodox.

...A major reason ACROD went elsewhere.

-------
Western Orthodoxy Blog [westernorthodox.blogspot.com]

I really enjoyed reading the article from St. Cryil's web page. So different from the history of Ukrainian settlement in Canada, which was pioneer settlement as farmers opening up the Canadian prairies.

Because of the Russification in the OCA would you say that ACROD has the true spiritual children of St. Alexis Toth?
Just a theory.

ACROD certainly has kept the Carpatho-Russian musical and liturgical heritage far better than the OCA, just as the Ukrainian Orthodox Church has kept the Galician traditions in Orthodoxy compared to the OCA. The usual "bread and butter" OCA liturgical usage is the Russian Synodal usage.

I would suggest one has to go to a "specialty diocese" such as the Albanians within the OCA to find anything substantially different than the St. Tikhon's little black pew books and Bakhmatev Obikhod melodies (St. Vlad's is an exception, but it is also a seminary). I haven't seen an OCA parishes that has "regained" much of its former Carpathian identity (Rusyn or Galician) other than a smattering of a hymn or a melody here or there (such as the occasional Tone 4 troparion melody, etc.) and perhaps a vestige such as a tetrapod.

Faced with the current financial/hierarchal/etc. controversy within the OCA, and the option of other Orthodox jurisdictions (ACROD and UOC) that have better preserved Carpathian liturgical traditions, I do not think he would go to the OCA, but that is only my opinion.

The Russification in the OCA resulted in an odd compromise evidenced by the liturgical practices of the OCA in the Coal Country of Eastern Pa and the Steel areas of Western Pa. Such practices as the use of a tetrapod, troitsa use during the reading of the Gospel, kneeling, and the use of pious folk singing during mirovaniye.

I remember, during the sad days of the early 80's, many of the OCA parishes in PA left the OCA over the imposition of the Revised Julian Calendar, and came into the Russian Church. I was present at several, and the confusion of the Russian Clergy and seminarians at their first introduction to Carpatho Russian Tradition and language. One seminarian, even came up to me, wide eyed and asked how is it that everyone was speaking in Slavonic! I tried to explain that it was an amalgamation of different dialects that the locals refer to as 'po'nashemu, the lingua franca of Pennsylvania. It was "interesting" to watch the Russian clergy trip over the tetrapod, and their looks when the people started singing Marian hymns in prostopenije during the dismissal. Vladika Hilarion even asked that we send him a recording, as it reminded him of his youth in the Ukrainian Church in western Canada.

SO, it would appear that the OCA is kind of a mixture of the 2, neither Great nor Carpatho Russian, but Pennsylvanian.

Just my 2 cents.

Alexandr

Orthodoxy in this country will likely evolve in such a way that some traditions vanish, and others appear in their place. I can certainly pick out all the differences between my parish and another of a different jurisdiction, but whether these differences are things people will care to or should care to maintain is probably up for debate.

In case anyone is curious, a "Trojca" is a large, heavy, elaborate three-branched candlestick often held (among other candles held by others) while the Deacon or Priest does an incensation. While this is certainly a "local" tradition, there is nothing about it which is either anti-Orthodox or anti-Catholic. Don't think I've seen one for quite a few years.

A "tetrapod" is, quite frankly, a nuisance - because people confuse it with the Holy Table of the Altar. One can find this superfluous piece of furniture in parishes which never had any connection with Greek-Catholicism, and one can also find Greek-Catholic parishes which don't have them and don't want them. Getting rid of them may not be worth a battle, but I've heard of worse aims.

Fr. Serge

Thank you Etnick for the kind words about my work at Saint Andrew's Orthodox Church in Maple Heights, OH. I was very blessed to be there for the weekend's services with an added treat of hearing Saint Tikhon's Seminary Choir.

I painted nine icons for the parish of which have relics embedded in them of the North American saints venerated in the Orthodox Church. Two of the icons were of Saint Elizabeth the New-Martyr and Saint Barbara, her cell-companion.

The relics were given to St. Andrew's Church by retired OCA Metropolitan +Theodosius. The pastor of the parish is Fr. Emil Hutnyan.

You can view the icons at http://www.theologyincolor.com/ray/mapleheights.html

Etnick, thank you again!

Ray

Does anyone know the origin or timeline of the stationary tetrapod in North America? I noticed the difference right away when I visited various Ukrainian Orthodox churches in Volyna (or in Kyiv) that the tetrapod was not a permanent feature before the iconostasis as in North America.
.

Our tetrapod is stationary and sits in the middle leading up to the solea. It holds the festal icon which people venerate before communion. I've never heard people complain about it or mix it up with what's behind the screen.

Our troitsa is held throughout the epistle and gospel.