www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall question about homosexuality

This issue is personal to me for different reasons. I have family and friends who are gay and still practising Catholics. They have actually forced me to become more "orthodox" in practice and belief because I knew that I could not legitimately hold the Church's position on homosexuality if I was mildly holding other positions. These individuals now no that I hold to the Church's teaching on all issues and that I would be just as likely to call out their siblings over the issue of birth control as I would be on their open defiance of Catholic teaching. I generally keep my mouth shut on the issue and allow my actions to speak louder than words. However, I get quit irritated when the topic comes up in general and people start throwing around phrases such as -bigotry from ignorance....I probably knew more about the gay subculture than any other hetero, and that is precisely why I am so abhorrent to the culture now. I know exactly what goes on at the gay festivals and bars because I used to frequent them with my friends. I know that the worst most lascivious Frat party was nothing compared to the average gay bar. And I think that to compare the mental and spiritual damage of homosexuality to that of the average hetero man trying to overcome lustful temptations from our culture is ridiculous. The 2 cultures are night and day from the outsider perspective....I have watched "decent" homosexuals who had long time partners of a decade or more, do nasty things on the dance floor with 2 or 3 or 5 men in one night....where do you ever see in hetero society-a "normalized" heterosexual man with a wife or fiancee or steady girl friend get away with multiple partners in one night that his girlfriend or wife acknowledges. NEVER....He would be dead!

So we need to pray for men with SSA. From my experience the gay community makes it darn near impossible to leave-harassment abounds. And I tend to be very skeptical of those with SSA who live celibately but refuse to go through church related counseling. I don't truly believe that they are willing to entirely let go of their passions. They may be sincere in stating that they do not act upon their passions but if you are truly sincere in believing that homo acts are a sin then you would do something about it (Note that was not a commentary on what anyone wrote here-remember I have many personal relationships with gay men). I have seen too many gay men, say that they believe the church, go to confession but not extricate themselves from the gay community or their own mental SSA's and eventually end up back as practising gay Catholics. And I tend to believe that anyone who jumps up and down in a negative fashion about anti gay counseling (for lack of a better phrase), well I tend to question why they get all bent out of shape about the issue. From my personal experience, the people who get the most worked up over groups like Exodus are gay men who know deep in their souls that the group might actually work but they prefer not leave their sin behind-just like the most obnoxious people who smoke refuse to acknowlege that anti smoking programs work because they don't want to get over this sin either....I ought to know about that one too. So many sins for me to spent and eternity in Purgatory for!

And last, I know for a fact that there are actively practising homosexuals on this list and probably one gay priest who is celibate buts still identifies himself with the gay community. Gay friends of mine within the Church have made me aware of that. It is not my intention to speculate who wrote what and why, so please don't jump on me for that. I did not read the thread closely enough...I will pray for the 2 men who wrote in discussing their issues. Amen. The courage it most have taken for you to leave everything and go to confession is absolutely amazing to me. May God bless and grant you many happy years.

Sincerely,

Holly

good points, Holly. did you read the article in October "Christianity Today"?. you may enjoy it. I am not surprised that the Gay Catholics in your life have caused you to become more orthodox in practice. it is an irony that a number of UCC churches that are "open and affirming" have become more conservative in their collective theological understanding as Gay and Lesbian folks have left conservative churches where their sexuality was an issue and joined the much more liberal UCC. I can't help but gloat at the irony. these folks did not abandon their theology. just my observations.
Much Love,
Jonn

Joe,


A desert father was asked one day how you become a saint. His answer was, "You fall, and get up. You fall, and get up..."

The second person in your example would be well on their way to sainthood, even if they fall very frequently.

How do you know that smoking is a sin? Also, if you don't think that promiscuous, adulterous sex isn't all the rave among homosexuals, then you need to go visit an ecstasy bar or a swinger's club. Or, just go to any major city, get the newspaper and look in the personals section. I personally know of a baptist church where they have had a big problem with the well-to-do couples (and some deacons) swinging together.

Anyway, I think your comments are a bit presumptuous and judgmental. I think I better go have a cigarette.

Joe

Holly

I think you hit the nail on the head. Every time a homosexual suffers from severe depression and has suicidal thoughts, due to their own overwhelming shame, they're told by the Gay community that the real reason you're miserable is because society just won't accept you and let you be who you are. God allows us to wallow in sin if we choose to, but he will never let us enjoy the addiction.

Folks, "take the log out of your own eye, then you can see to take the speck out out of your brethren's."

Joe

Holly said:

And last, I know for a fact that there are actively practising homosexuals on this list and probably one gay priest who is celibate buts still identifies himself with the gay community. Gay friends of mine within the Church have made me aware of that. It is not my intention to speculate who wrote what and why, so please don't jump on me for that. I did not read the thread closely enough...

I think that this is very inappropriate and does nothing but tempt people to speculate and possibly gossip about forum members. Making this comment was completely unnecessary.

Joe

Joe,

Exactly what is presumptous and judgemental in my thoughts? If you are going to make a blanket statement then you need to be specific.

Smoking is a sin. Thy body is a temple thing. I have spent years overcoming that one. But I must say that I always find it amusing that when I open my mouth over this issue, someone always calls me judgemental. At no point did I condemn any one to hell or make a judgement on the state of their soul. It is not my place only God will decide that.

I remember during my Residence Assistance training in college that the best way for a gay person to undo the Christian individual was to get to know them personally. After they had established a relationship and acted sufficiently conservative in beliefs they were to slowly bring up the gay thing. If a relationship had been established it would be very difficult for the average individual to continue to stand up for their belief system. Apparently, the strategy worked because when I graduated in 1990 and came home espousing the beliefs of my gay friends, everyone around me was shocked. But 10 years later the same individuals are now supportive of gay rights, while I of course have watched nearly everyone of my gay friends self destruct. Intelligent, wonderful men who are dying from self indulgence, and lack of self control. I go to bed every night and weep for the men, who I know who have died or are dying! I go to bed every night and beg God to have mercy on my friends and family and use me as a living sacrifice to save their souls. How dare you call me presumptous or judgemental! Take the own speck out of your eye. Everytime I have a C section, I offer my life for thier souls. Did it ever occur to you that someone might love their gay friends so much that they would be willing to DIE to save their souls? I doubt it.

And the fact that some hetero commit adultery is a red herring. We all know that heterosexuals sin. Yes, we know it. But there is nothing to compare with the unfettered out of control gay life style. Nothing....I don't see heterosexual gay festivals where they fornicate in the streets and whip each other publicly in front of churches. The gay lifestyle is for the average gay man so far beyond what the average sinful heterosexual does. But the big difference is that your average sinning or non heterosexual couple doesn't get up on TV and try to defend public naked S&M as a right. Please.

Everyone is created in the image of God, even those at the Folsum Street Fair. I do not think myself any better than anyone else. I know that there are many gay men who probably know Jesus better than I ever could hope to. I am a sinner, I beg and plead for mercy. I beg for humility. I beg for forgiveness.

Holly

Joe,

It is necessary to make the comment. Because everyone needs to know the perspectives from which comments are made. The moderator commented that there were too many politically correct statements made. Well, I wonder why? I don't bother to look closely and speculate who wrote whay and why. And anyone who publicly came through and said-well this person said that therefore they must be-should have their thread removed. But I definitely think that it should be on the back of every person's mind whenever they read threads on this forum or any other Catholic or political forum that there are gay people lurking or posting just for this particular reason. To deny that is sheer naivete or stupidity. I know it because that was the gay game plan designed all the way back in the late 80's and early 90's by politically active gay college students. I was there as a "fag hag". I actually have the evidence, as journal and diary entries from nearly 20 years ago. So please don't call me crazy or a liar or delusional...

Holly

Very well, take this statement first,
I know that the worst most lascivious Frat party was nothing compared to the average gay bar.

Not only is this statement absurd (have you been to the most lascivious frat party?), it is the kind of statement made for rhetorical effect, to reinforce the notion that homosexuals, unlike other sinners, are somehow super-deviant.

Why is it ridiculous?

This is simply untrue. It happens all the time, hence swingers and the prevalence of adultery in our society. Also what does "normalized" mean? and why put "decent" in quotes? A heterosexual sinner is decent but a homosexual is not?

If this isn't a presumptuous and judgmental statement, then I don't know what is.

Again, if this is not presumptous and judgmental then I don't know what is. And do you consider all smokers to be obnoxious people?


And as I have already said, this comment was entirely unnecessary. If it is not your intention to speculate and you don't want us to, then why bring it up? Why create a climate of suspicion and fear?


Smoking in moderation is not a sin. It is no more a sin than drinking and eating in moderation are sins. Being addicted to smoking is a sinful attachment, however.

I was not judging you. I was pointing out that your comments are judgmental and presumptuous.

Joe