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Originally Posted by Zan
Originally Posted by EdHash
So a married minister who wants to be a Catholic priest has it easier than a Byzantine Catholic seminarian? I recommend that they become ministers in other denominations before applying to the priesthood. This I call the fully assembled clergyman ready for ordination.
Edhash, what religion are you (Anglican, Baptist, Methodist etc)? I mean this is a religion forum and you are (I guess) attepmting to debate... so I think I have a right to ask that question. Because no Catholic (or Orthodox I know) would EVER suggest doing this... the mere thought makes me sick.

It is the joke being passed around in my Byzantine Catholic family. Must you take everything I write seriously? Can't you see the humor?

Concerning my Byzantine Catholic family, their nephew can no longer contemplate a married priesthood because he is not permitted. He has discerned the *gift* of celibacy, and has concluded that he never got it. He is thinking becoming Orthodox, going to the former church of his mother. His family joked that he should become a Protestant minister (like his uncle) then apply for priesthood later since he might have a better chance then. Again, just a joke. OK?

Ed

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Originally Posted by EdHash
Originally Posted by Zan
Originally Posted by EdHash
So a married minister who wants to be a Catholic priest has it easier than a Byzantine Catholic seminarian? I recommend that they become ministers in other denominations before applying to the priesthood. This I call the fully assembled clergyman ready for ordination.
Edhash, what religion are you (Anglican, Baptist, Methodist etc)? I mean this is a religion forum and you are (I guess) attepmting to debate... so I think I have a right to ask that question. Because no Catholic (or Orthodox I know) would EVER suggest doing this... the mere thought makes me sick.

It is the joke being passed around in my Byzantine Catholic family. Must you take everything I write seriously? Can't you see the humor?

Concerning my Byzantine Catholic family, their nephew can no longer contemplate a married priesthood because he is not permitted. He has discerned the *gift* of celibacy, and has concluded that he never got it. He is thinking becoming Orthodox, going to the former church of his mother. His family joked that he should become a Protestant minister (like his uncle) then apply for priesthood later since he might have a better chance then. Again, just a joke. OK?

Ed

Yet, Ed, it is a joke that is quite poignant and reveals the absurdity of the current rules regarding mandatory celibacy; especially since Rome doesn't consider Anglican and protestant orders to be valid.

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"I just view the ministries they are allowed (non parish oriented) as a sense of second class priesthood."

Unless I am mistaken, this is not always the case. Their placement is determined by the bishop, there are married priests in Houston. I met one at a bookstore and his wife is an Episcopalian minister. When I asked him how his home life is, he told me that it was hard and that his wife does not understand his conversion. He can not divorce; if his wife leaves him on her volition he cannot remarry and will keep to a vow of chastity.

I must disagree with your judgment of the ministry you describe. I cannot imagine a priest whose clerical duties are assigned to a hospital as "second tier". Is absolution unimportant?

Terry

Last edited by Terry Bohannon; 11/04/07 01:47 AM.
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Originally Posted by Terry Bohannon
I must disagree with your judgment of the ministry you describe. I cannot imagine a priest whose clerical duties are assigned to a hospital as "second tier". Is absolution unimportant?

Terry

Indeed, I guess there is no merit in ministry to the old, sick, and dying. Such a position is in my opinion much more honorable than parish work.

Edhash, we very different views of what is humorous since I see no joke, only snide comments towards celibacy. If one can�t be handle celibacy, don�t be a priest. Even if one dose get married before becoming a priest there is always a chance that the wife would die before the man, then what? In the bible St. Paul says one should live a celibate life and only marry if you can�t control yourself.

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Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
Yet, Ed, it is a joke that is quite poignant and reveals the absurdity of the current rules regarding mandatory celibacy; especially since Rome doesn't consider Anglican and protestant orders to be valid.

Joe

I really see no absurdity at all, nor do "valid orders" have anything to do with it. It has to do with the fact the training for Anglican ministers (and to a lesser extent some Lutherans) is very similar to the training of Catholic priests, and the parish structure also has many similarities not to mention the valuable pastoral experience that these men have.

In some diocese the bishop assigns such men to a parish, in other dioceses the bishop assigns them to hospital ministry or educational roles.

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Edhash, it is unfortunate that your relative cannot marry and be a priest since it his tradition, but in the United States the bishop has a right to decide whether or not he wants married priests in his eparchy. I will pray for your nephew tonight that he finds happiness and his true vocation, where ever that may be.

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Its easier for an Orthodox to become a Catholic priest. As their orders are recognised, Orthodox priests are merely incardinated into ministry.

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Greetings from Florida -- just to let you know, there are Ukrainian Catholic Married Clergy "working" here in FL. I know one in Ohio, who has been here at our parish to celebrate Divine Liturgy.
There is probably not enough space in this forum to debate the pro's and con's of a married clergy. I was fortunate enough to know a few when I lived in PA., among them Fr. Stephen Loya. He was probably one of the kindest, most spiritual priests I had ever known at the time -- with many children who continue to serve our churches even today. The politics of Latin Rite / Greek Catholic officials in the 1930's and '40's had a lot to do with the current celibacy requirement.
Those "old days" are gone. Meanwhile, let us all pray that the Holy Spirit will enlighten us all, and prepare us for whatever is to come. The revitalization of the deacon program is a good beginning -- We are fortunate at our parish to have a deacon who has kept our church together for the last few years, without the luxury of a full time, resident pastor.
Tomorrow at Liturgy, we can all pray for guidance.

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pilgrimcantor, it dates back to Archbishop John Ireland's refusal to recognize the credentials of Fr. Alexis Toth in 1891.

Ed Hash, if you have Byzantine family, you must realize that due to the above, which resulted in thousands of Greek Catholics becoming Orthodox, your statement of leaning toward orthodoxy combined with your negativity toward Byzantine church is likely to be viewed as contentious.

No organization remains static for 2000 years.



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Originally Posted by Terry Bohannon
I must disagree with your judgment of the ministry you describe. I cannot imagine a priest whose clerical duties are assigned to a hospital as "second tier". Is absolution unimportant?

Terry,

I don't consider assignments to hospitals a second tier ministry. I've volunteered in hospitals and found it both challenging and enlightening. I view the way former Protestant ministers as second class. They are not good enough for parish ministry. Might it publicize their marriage too much for comfort? Listen. in the Roman Catholic church becoming a pastor of a church can take years. I know this from Catholic friends. After all the work then comes someone from the outside who jumps in front and gets a parish assignment? no way!

Ed

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Originally Posted by Zan
If one can�t be handle celibacy, don�t be a priest.

So celibacy IS an impediment to vocations as much as marriage is an impediment to ordination. Strange.

I have nothing aganist those who choose celibacy or have the gift. They are spiritual heroes in my book.

would you say that Byzantine Catholic vocations to the priesthood who also have a desire to marry are not called to serve in their church?

Ed

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That prohibition is no longer in force, and technically hasn't been since the Second Vatican Council although until the first married man was ordained here in the U.S. (by Bishop JOHN or the Melkites) there had been no real test of the change.

Well we can not forget the ordination of married men by the UGCC in Canada back in the 1970's...(shortly after Vatican II) if I remember correctly Rome did not allow the priests to serve...and tried to severely discipline the bishop...and although I was pretty young at the time...I believe the priests went into and out of ministry (I believe after the dust settled years later they all continued to function as priests in the UGCC)...it was a long battle between the bishop and Rome and if I remember correctly Rome was pretty "heavy handed"
So I don't think it's right to say cum data feurit or Ea Semper were not in force as of Vatican II...
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Ruthenian bishops had decided among themselves to seek permission from Rome because they were not sure of the canonical status of the former prohibition.

If I remember correctly the Norms that were presented to Rome under Metropolitan Judson explicitly stated that married men would no longer be excluded from ordination to the priesthood...it was when Rome "pushed back hard" that the Ruthenian bishops decided to end the conflict and seek permission from Rome...

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Funny, when issuing the RDL we are a Sui Juris Metropolitan Church that doesn't need Rome's approval. If the Byzantine Metropolitan Church of America is Sui Juris, why do they need Rome's approval to ordain married men to the priesthood?

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You guys need to read the new Eastern Code of Canon Law, marriage is not an impediment to ordination.
Stephanos I

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Fr. Stephanos...

With all due respect...I think what the issue is in regards to Married clergy it's not Eastern Canon Law...the issue is the Ruthenian bishops who don't have the "guts" to stand up and be eastern...it gets back to a problem that I have loudly proclaimed in other threads...with Rome appointing the bishops they are "puppets of Rome"...when Rome wants something (or in this case doesn't want something) the puppets do what Rome wants...I was pleased when I learned they have ordained a married man in Parma...I think Ung is correct in that it is very interesting when the church Sui Juris status is invoked and when it isn't...

I think this still stays on track speaking about canonical impediments to ordination...

Chris

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