The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Atomic Parakeet 1, Anna777, HeraclitusTheObscu, Charbelknox, Andreas_Iacobus
5,828 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
2 members (2 invisible), 83 guests, and 20 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,136
Posts414,726
Members5,828
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,437
Administrator
Member
OP Offline
Administrator
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,437
A couple years ago this would have been unthinkable to have the Archivist of the OCA giving this presentation in a ROCOR parish. Well here are the news releases from the respective websites.

OCA News release [oca.org]

ROCOR News release [synod.com]

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+


Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,854
Likes: 21
Moderator
Member
Online Content
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,854
Likes: 21
The inside of this church is absolutely beautiful. Truly a sight to lift one's mind and soul.

BOB

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,134
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,134
It's great to see a rift healed in Holy Orthodoxy. biggrin Now let's move on to the next step. We all know what that is. wink

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,775
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,775
This is a good thing. My only concern is that the Russian/Slavonic community has a history of shooting themselves in the foot, and I hope that with the current difficulties in the OCA that the enosis will come to a decent fruition.

The Patriarchals and the ROCOR communities are decidedly RUSSIAN and make no bones about being so, including OCS in the liturgy, Russian language and familial customs and the honoring of the Czar and the Imperial Family.

This isn't going to do well in the US among the non-Russian people. At least the OCA has made serious efforts (as have the Byzantine Catholics) to be viable among the non-Hunkies. (I use that term with the utmost respect - they are pioneers who suffered and sacrificed much for the Faith!)

If things go badly for the OCA (FBI investigations, internal 'dues withholding', demands for resignations, etc.) and Moscow rescinds its tomos of autocephaly for the OCA, then non-Greek/non-Antiochian/non-Ukrainian(sort-of) Orthodoxy will be in a bad situation in the US.

I'm wondering what will happen with 'holy Orthodoxy' in North America.

The Greeks, Ukrainians and the Antiochians (to a certain extent) have a base upon which to build. The Russians will have a hard row to hoe. Perhaps the face of Orthodoxy in North America will take on a different complexion.

Let us pray for peace among all of the Lord's baptized.

Blessings!

Dr John

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
Dr John, I don't know if I can agree with your conclusions. ROCOR has experienced quite a bit of growth in the west, because of, not in spite of,the fact that it makes no bones about it being the Russian Orthodox Church. The recent post about the huge ROCOR Church being built in Cincinnati, which is hardly Mini Moscow, seems to verify this, as well as the success of our numerous other missions.

All of this will eventually lead to some form of canonical order for the Orthodox Church in North America. As it stands now, it is a mess, and cannot continue much longer. Canonically, the Church here was established by the Russian Church and all hierarchs in this country were obedient to the Russian Church until the revolution stopped the ability of Moscow to maintain the Church here. That is when canonical chaos started. If the Tomos of Autocephaly is rescinded, then all the past differences of the 3 branches of the Russian Church here will be resolved, and the Russian Church can stand here as one unit. Then we can sit down with our Greek, Ukrainian and Serbian brothers and together forge a common goal for the Church in North America. The strongly conservative influence of the Russian Church will also facilitate the cleansing of some of the liberal thought processes that have entered the more liberal Orthodox jurisdictions. The ultimate goal, at least in my opinion, would be a united American Orthodox Church, under a Metropolitan on the Synod of the ROC, with metachion parishes of the various Old World Churches for those with strong ethnic ties, until such time as American Orthodoxy has matured enough and has produced her own monastic and patristic tradition enough to be able to be a viable autonomous Orthodox Church.

Alexandr

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,070
J
Jim Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,070
Alexandr said, "If the Tomos of Autocephaly is rescinded, then all the past differences of the 3 branches of the Russian Church here will be resolved, and the Russian Church can stand here as one unit."

Rescinding the tomos would require agreement from the OCA itself in order to work. It's not like a papal decision which can be made or unmade unilaterally, depending on a variety of circumstances. Authority is not vested in one decision-maker.

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
Ah, but Jim, look at the whole picture. The portion of the Russian Orthodox Church that was not enslaved by the Bolsheviks has never recognized the autocephaly of the American Metropolia. We recognize that they have a valid episcopacy, and are truly Orthodox, but canonically irregular and definitely not autocephalous. In this we are in agreement with Constantinople and the other ancient Patriarchates. The American Metropolia, joined ROCOR in 1921, left in 1926, returned in 1935 and again left in 1946, for the final time. Since then, they have been viewed as separated brethren.
The question now is, are the decisions and mandates handed down by the enslaved portion of the Russian Church valid? Meaning, of course, the Tomos of Autocephaly. If the OCA survives as an entity, I am sure that this issue will be raised by the Russian Synod of Bishops. If the OCA does not, then the whole issue is moot.

Alexandr

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 262
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 262
Well put Alexandr. The only jurisdictions that ever recognised the autocephaly of the OCA were the MP and its minions: Poland, Slovakia etc. I think the OCA's future including autocephaly and credibility as the only "American Church" are in doubt.

I see from reading Orthodox discussion forums some of the OCA converts are open to joining the Antiochian church. Whatever happens, because of the present OCA problems, I can see the offspring of the original Slavic laity returning to the Russian Orthodox and converts going to the Antiochians. The result will be a much smaller OCA.
Not that the OCA was ever the largest jurisdiction in the US. The believe the Greeks (PC) have that honour. The Ukrainians in both the US and Canada (although very small churches) have come under the PC umbrella.

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,070
J
Jim Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,070
If this were an issue of interest among the churches I would think there would be pan-Orthodox meetings going on to discuss it- the way there were when ROCOR and the MP began their rapprochement. Are such meetings going on?

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
Well, to put it mildly, I don't think the OCA question is too high on the lists of the Old World Orthodox Churches, preferring to think of it as an internal affair of the ROC. I was not aware of any Pan Orthodox meetings taking place with the ROCOR/MP Reconcilliation.

Alexandr

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,437
Administrator
Member
OP Offline
Administrator
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,437
Jim,

From what I remember of the initial start to the reconciliation between the MP and ROCOR was the initial mediation of the Patriarch of Serbia, Pavle suggesting the model he had used in 1990 between the then Free Serbian Church and the Patriarchate. The Ecumenical Patriarchate was never involved as well as the Patriarchs of Antioch and Alexandria or any of the other autocephalous churches. After the initial meeting, the Patriarch withdrew from the talks and let the two parties work out any differences and the conditions of reunion over the next several years.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+


Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 262
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 262
Quote
Well, to put it mildly, I don't think the OCA question is too high on the lists of the Old World Orthodox Churches, preferring to think of it as an internal affair of the ROC. I was not aware of any Pan Orthodox meetings taking place with the ROCOR/MP Reconcilliation.

Alexandr
I would tend to agree with Alexandr here. Since the other Orthodox jurisdictions outside of the MP sphere of interest do not recognise the autocephaly of the OCA given by the MP, I would tend to think it is an internal MP matter.
Autocephaly, if all works well, is granted by the mother church, in this case, the MP. Therefore, I doubt there are or will be any pan-Orthodox meetings to discuss the issue of the OCA's status.

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
I notice with pleasure that one of the concelebrants with Metropolitan Laurus is Mitred Archpriest Vincent Saverino, Pastor of Saint Michael's Russian Orthodox Cathedral in Philadelphia and Dean of the Patriarchal Parishes in the USA. It is possible that some other Moscow Patriarchate priests were among the concelebrants.

Fr. Serge

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
The Moscow Patriarchate parish priests of Wilkes-Barre and Scranton were also among the concelebrants.

Fr. Serge


Moderated by  Father Anthony 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2022 (Forum 1998-2022). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5