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Ung-Certez,

I understand that we will be using:
In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit...

because in Greek there are no commas. So, sounds like a VERY literal translation in most areas.

Also, isn't the new Ruthenian Divine Liturgy a Revision?

From the article of Father Michael Skrocki, the structure of the Divine Liturgy is kept intact. Either the Synodal One Antiphon can be taken or Three Antiphons. This is up to the celebrant.

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"Either the Synodal One Antiphon can be taken or Three Antiphons. This is up to the celebrant."

Our Hierarchs (Ruthenian) should also leave it up to the celebrant, and local parish, to use fuller forms of the antiphons. What is so bad about using fuller psalms?

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Originally Posted by Stephanie Kotyuh
Is it available online?

DRAFT [patronagechurch.com] 644 kb pdf file

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..."unto ages of ages" and "for us men". I like it already! biggrin

Ungcsertezs


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It's wonderful! mankind, unto ages of ages, and Master! We should scrap ours, and use theirs. Anybody with me on that??????

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I've quickly perused this text.

I find it odd that some of ya'll who have criticized the Ruthenian books are applauding this new Melkite text simply because it uses "ages of ages." Is that all that matters? They (the Melkites) are taking even greater liberties with the Divine Liturgy compared with those taken by the Ruthenians. The Melkites give options for the presbyteral prayers (something new to the Byzantine rite), for the Antiphons (you can use either 1, 3, or the Typical Psalms and Beatitudes with Troparia), and for the Litany of Supplication after the Gospel.

Plus, there are some unique rubrics in Appendix 6 (on page 100 of the text, or page 103 of the PDF).

Dave

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Chtec,

I am not the expert here. Perhaps you cold speak to Matta, but I was under the assumption according to the arictle of Father Michael Skrocki from the recent Sophia journal that no new liberties were taken. Rather, there are option available that were already available and used by some in the Old Country. Aside from this there are things which come from the Barberini Codex.

I don't know of any liberites taken. I assume that this is only a new transltion, not a revision.

Of course, Father Serge or Matta can clarify these things.

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The rubrics, to which I presume you refer, are a return to the way the ekten�s were originally performed in the rite. The deacon in Greek & Antiochian Orthodox (and Melkite) churches has often added mention of those, for whom the liturgy is offered (cf. several hieratika).

As for the antiphons. You'll find that many Antiochian and Greek Orthodox churches had been celebrating the antiphons in a similar way for at least a couple of hundred years (cf. synekd�mos of Athens, for example). The Melkite synod of 1969, merely affirmed this as one possible usage, fully representative of our rite over history. The antiphons when finally coming into the Byzantine rite (11th century-ish) took some time to settle down; practice in this area has not been uniform over the period of their existence in the Byzantine liturgy.

And as for "at all times, both now and ever, and unto ages of ages". I personally don't like it, although I believe it has been used for a while in the US. I preferred our earlier translation: "now and always and forever and ever", which is closer to modern English. However, even though "unto ages of ages" is an older form of English, it is very close to the Greek original: "nyn kai aei kai eis tous ai�nas t�n ai�n�n."

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I cannot believe anyone who dislikes the Revised Ruthenian Liturgy likes the Revised Melkite Liturgy:

Precut particles permitted for the Communion of the Faithful

Optional to take only one Antiphon

Alternate Antiphon Prayers

Petitions of Ektene after Gospel may be chanted by lay people!!!

Ektene after Gospel and Litany of Faithful conjoined so that Second Prayer of Faithful is the Prayer of the Ektene

Prayers of Matins may be used as Alternate Second Prayer of the Faithful

First Prayer of the Faithful suppressed

Litany of Catechumens suppressed unless catechumens at Liturgy

Angel of Peace petitions suppressed after Great Entrance

Kiss of Peace restored for the faithful

The Doors! The Doors! suppressed unless catechumens present

Anaphora aloud mandated

Hymn: "Let our mouths be filled" made optional

2 petitions made optional in Litany of Thanksgiving

Alternate Prayers of Thanksgiving

As for translations they do not say Orthodox at the Great Entrance and every appearance of it elsewhere is in quiet recitation so the faithful don't have to hear it.The exception is for the second to last petition of the Ektene and that petition does not have to be used. They do use brothers and sisters in the fifth petition of the Ektene.

Those praising this revision either didn't read it completely or are being very hypocritical in criticizing the Revised Ruthenian Liturgy and praising the Revised Melkite Liturgy.

Fr. Deacon Lance

PS: to my Melkite brothers and sisters, I find nothing wrong with the new Melkite Liturgy with the possible exception of the laity taking the petitions of the Ektene, (still undecided). I just can't believe some would critize the RDL then praise the Melkite revision when they share much in common.


Last edited by Fr. Deacon Lance; 11/07/07 10:38 PM.

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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
I cannot believe anyone who dislikes the Revised Ruthenian Liturgy likes the Revised Melkite Liturgy:

Precut particles permitted for the Communion of the Faithful

Optional to take only one Antiphon

Alternate Antiphon Prayers

Petitions of Ektene after Gospel may be chanted by lay people!!!

Ektene after Gospel and Litany of Faithful conjoined so that Second Prayer of Faithful is the Prayer of the Ektene

Prayers of Matins may be used as Alternate Second Prayer of the Faithful

First Prayer of the Faithful suppressed

Litany of Catechumens suppressed unless catechumens at Liturgy

Angel of Peace petitions suppressed after Great Entrance

Kiss of Peace restored for the faithful

The Doors! The Doors! suppressed unless catechumens present

Anaphora aloud mandated

Hymn: "Let our mouths be filled" made optional

2 petitions made optional in Litany of Thanksgiving

Alternate Prayers of Thanksgiving

As for translations they do not say Orthodox at the Great Entrance and every appearance of it elsewhere is in quiet recitation so the faithful don't have to hear it.The exception is for the second to last petition of the Ektene and that petition does not have to be used. They do use brothers and sisters in the fifth petition of the Ektene.

Those praising this revision either didn't read it completely or are being very hypocritical in criticizing the Revised Ruthenian Liturgy and praising the Revised Melkite Liturgy.

Fr. Deacon Lance

I didn't see any inclusive language in the Melkite translation. biggrin

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"I didn't see any inclusive language in the Melkite translation"

There is at least one use: brothers and sisters in the fifth petition of the Ektene. The same use is found in the RDL and was criticized.

Fr. Deacon Lance


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Fr. Deacon Lance,

Perhaps Father Serge or Matta could reply to your post.

Optional to take only one Antiphon
Alternate Antiphon Prayers
Petitions of Ektene after Gospel may be chanted by lay people!!!
Ektene after Gospel and Litany of Faithful conjoined so that Second Prayer of Faithful is the Prayer of the Ektene

I think these were already addressed

Kiss of Peace restored for the faithful

That's supposed to be there.

Anaphora aloud mandated

??? The RDL does this. This is something unique to the Melkites though before this. I like it, others don't. I think it was an Aleppan practice.


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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
"I didn't see any inclusive language in the Melkite translation"

There is at least one use: they use brothers and sisters in the fifth petition of the Ektene. the same use is found in the RDL and was criticized.

Fr. Deacon Lance

The most important part, the Creed, was not altered. Neither was the final blessing.

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Laka Ya Rabb,

You must have missed my PS.

PS: to my Melkite brothers and sisters, I find nothing wrong with the new Melkite Liturgy with the possible exception of the laity taking the petitions of the Ektene, (still undecided). I just can't believe some would critize the RDL then praise the Melkite revision when they share much in common.

Fr. Deacon Lance


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Etnick,

All it takes is one use and you've succumbed to the modernist feminist agenda according to those critical of the RDL.

Fr. Deacon Lance


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