www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Rome says no go for UGCC Patriarchate

Amen, amen, amen.

Diak:

I was off and went to the UGCC link given on another thread. I am so impressed by the statement by your Synod over Patriarch Lubomyr's signature. Your bishops have committed to being in communion with Rome. They speak from a tradition of conviction. They want to maintain the tie, even when it costs. They've got faith, they carry the Lord in their flesh. You have to thank God every day for them.

A bishop is called to be a figure of reconciliation, of being the one who draws others to Christ as he draws them to his own person holding the office of the Apostle for us and for our time and place. Some of my favorite quotes from the Fathers include "let no man do anything in the Church without the bishop" and "where the bishop is, there is the Catholic Church" and "the Church is the People of God, gathered around their bishop, celebrating the Eucharist." You have a collection of rare, holy men there. Listen to them. The wisdom and virtue that seeps out of that piece leaves me breathless.

As I posted about a year ago, His Beatitude is a Patriarch if he lives as a "bishop's bishop." That is, he supports and encourages his brothers. So if no one else recognizes that, so what?!?!?! What if the only One Who recognizes it is Jesus? If He notices, who else is important enough to merit your time or concern?

Perfect justice is not something we'll find here. So as your bishops seem to counsel, be patient. Shed those tears and ask the Lord to toughen your faith so that it's like a wall of granite covered over with a sheet of bronze. Be what your particular Church has been for the last 400+ years: faithful in the good times and in the tough times. Remember the refrain from a Vespers I attended: "God is with us, understand this . . . and submit yourselves, for God is with us."

You remain in my prayers.

In Christ,

BOB

Dear Bob,

Actually, I think we've shed enough tears - and blood in this respect.

Rather than leave Rome, I think the best way to punish Rome for its injustice toward us is to stay loyal to it and struggle for our rights so that the entire world may see the way Rome treats its Churches that have produced so many martyrs for union with it.

That will hurt Rome and hopefully get it to reconsider its stance in a way that nothing else will.

We are ready for that struggle and we are united to carry it out.

The question is: Is Rome ready for the moral impact this is going to cause it?

The world's press understands well Rome's political stance with Moscow.

Rome isn't having a good third millenium so far, is it?

Alex

Dear Friends,

Our parish priest has said that he has it on good authority that a Roman Cardinal has said that if the Ukrainian episcopate are united in desiring a patriarchate - the Pope will agree.

Anyone heard anything about this?

Alex

Everything is quiet at the front lines down here.
You can hear a fly fart if you pay close attention.
Lauro

Alex,

I think the biggest obstacle in this regard is the same obstacle we, as the Churches of the East, face every day in every way. Our own brothers and sisters of the Western Church in many instances don't even know we exist , let alone understand our hierarchical structure - how soon can we expect the rest of the Christian and non-Christian world to do so?

Many years,

Neil

Dear Neil,

Excellent point!

But Rome, I believe, would like the UGCC to be a good, obedient child and go away humbly having received the "not yet" word from it.

Roman Catholics have their own problems to be sure.

Do they ever . . .

Ultimately, Rome itself would not want the UGCC people to become upset and call attention to what they perceive to be an injustice by Rome.

And the last thing Rome needs is the secular Western press to pick up on this thing and let everyone know how Rome treats its own children for the sake of scoring doubtful points with Moscow etc.

I agree that RC's don't care and don't know, for the most part, that we exist.

However, RC laity in the U.S., as I read in some articles, got to know us in a hurry in the wake of the clergy abuse scandals when they discovered that there are EC married clergy . . . or as John Walsh said it, "One of the Church's best kept secrets."

It is possible for Western Catholics to get to know us in a short span of time, when necessary.

When I was active in the patriarchal movement in my younger years, no one in the West truly cared about Patriarch Joseph.

But today the way in which Rome makes up its mind after its Cardinal visits Moscow is just a wonderful tool that Rome has unwittingly given to the UGCC.

The secular press is hungry for issues in which it can make Rome look bad.

I can see the headline now, "When it comes to Ukrainian Catholics, Rome listens to Moscow."

In addition, I don't know what Kasper was going on about with respect to Rome's achivements with Orthodoxy in the last decade.

What achievements? Relations between Rome and Moscow have been going downhill at an accelerated rate.

These days, Rome shows that it really needs to hire some good PR people.

The ones its has now do not serve it well at all.

Alex

Dear Alex,
Would PR people mean "Puerto Ricans"?
Lauro

Dear Lauro,

Actually, it means "Polish Russophiles."

Alex

Posted by Orthodox Catholic:

"Ultimately, Rome itself would not want the UGCC people to become upset and call attention to what they perceive to be an injustice by Rome.

And the last thing Rome needs is the secular Western press to pick up on this thing and let everyone know how Rome treats its own children for the sake of scoring doubtful points with Moscow etc.

I agree that RC's don't care and don't know, for the most part, that we exist.

However, RC laity in the U.S., as I read in some articles, got to know us in a hurry in the wake of the clergy abuse scandals when they discovered that there are EC married clergy . . . or as John Walsh said it, "One of the Church's best kept secrets."

It is possible for Western Catholics to get to know us in a short span of time, when necessary.

When I was active in the patriarchal movement in my younger years, no one in the West truly cared about Patriarch Joseph.

But today the way in which Rome makes up its mind after its Cardinal visits Moscow is just a wonderful tool that Rome has unwittingly given to the UGCC.

The secular press is hungry for issues in which it can make Rome look bad.

I can see the headline now, "When it comes to Ukrainian Catholics, Rome listens to Moscow."

In addition, I don't know what Kasper was going on about with respect to Rome's achivements with Orthodoxy in the last decade.

What achievements? Relations between Rome and Moscow have been going downhill at an accelerated rate.

These days, Rome shows that it really needs to hire some good PR people.

The ones its has now do not serve it well at all.

Alex "

Dear Alex,

I think you're right on target here. There is a growing awareness among a sizable number of Western Catholics about the Eastern Catholic Churches. The Pope's visit to Ukraine, Anthony Dragani on EWTN, and the current situation in Ukraine have raised some consciousness.

Patriarch Lubomyr has surfaced the issue of fairness in regard to the UGCC and the decisions being made with regard to its future. He is a real gift to all of our Churches, I think. This approach offers a real chance to awaken interest about a Patriarch in the UGCC in the current situation.

Has there been any work done on informing the Catholic Press about the events in Ukraine? Catholic papers and magazine might be a way to further educate an even wider range of Western Catholics. But that won't happen without some nudging, it seems to me.

The apparent failure of the ecumenical efforts from Rome to the Moscow Patriarchate needs to become more well known also. I think. highlighting the possible authority over the decision about the creation of the Ukrainian Patriarchate make clearer the unfairness and the inappropriateness of the process. But how to highlight it?

Is there an iformation packet about the events happening that could be sent to Catholic publications like the Florida Catholic that is distributed all over our state, for example? How about the Tablet in London?

Our Churches are headed by wise men. Maybe we can help each of them to do what is right by mobilizing public opinion on the side of right?

Hope that I haven't hexed the possiblity by saying this. :rolleyes:

Steve

What the Ukranian Metropolitans and Eparchies need to do is a "fait accompli" elect your Patriarch and send the notification to Rome.
What can they say?
Stephanos I
You should be a pawn in no one's hands Latin or Orthodox.

Alex,

Case in point:

Russian Mayor Blocks Plan for Carmelite Convent [zenit.org]

Many years,

Neil

Dear Neil,

Yes, a real tragedy - thank you for bringing that up!

And Rome really can't blame the UGCC patriarchate for having caused that either!

The relationship between Moscow and Rome reminds one of the relationship between the province of Quebec and the ROC ("Rest Of Canada" ).

Moscow sets the agenda and demands concessions from Rome. If they are not given, Moscow threatens to stop talking with Rome.

Moscow demands restrictions on the activities of the UGCC and its expansion in Ukraine and expects Rome to impose them. If they are not, Moscow threatens to stop talking with Rome AND will continue to annoy Catholics and Catholic priests throughout Russia.

The point is, Moscow will continue to harass the Catholic Church at will.

Rome should perhaps become more aware that the very existence of the UGCC in Ukraine is considered a "plot by Rome" on the part of the Moscow patriarchate.

Moscow refuses to acknowledge the FACT that the UGCC was restored not by the underground clergy, but by the clergy of the ROC, trained by the MP, whose grandparents taught them about their martyred faith and saints.

My uncle was an ROC priest with a doctorate from the Moscow theological academy. He visited us when the USSR was still alive and kicking.

He had very positive comments about the Russian Church and the MP.

But he was a Ukrainian Catholic, like many of his confreres in a similar situation.

And in the early nineties when the USSR was teetering under Gorbachev, he and others met a Russian Metropolitan on the steps of St George's Cathedral in L'viv.

But instead of greeting him, they all began to sing "Many Years" to . . . His Holiness Pope John Paul II . . .

Soon the "Orthodox" churches of the city were ringing bells and singing the same hymn for the Pope!

That is how the UGCC was restored.

I know the Pope knows this and is supportive of our Church.

As for the Cardinals for whom these events mean nothing - SHAME ON THEM!

Have a nice day!

Alex

Dear Steve,

Excellent!

And your state of Florida is wonderful too!

I'm hoping that Rome will settle this patriarchate issue without us having to resort to name-calling in the press or trying to mobilize the Latins to come to our side etc.

Somehow I maintain the hope that all will be well, to quote St Julian of Norwich!

I think the Vatican is no fool - it sees how our clergy, bishops and people are now moving as one in reaction to Walter Cardinal Kasper's visit to Moscow.

As I said, the notion of "the fate of our Church is being decided in Moscow" is just too good a PR vantage point for the UGCC and leaves the Vatican politicians at a great disadvantage with the world press.

Besides, I think you Latins have your own issues to deal with without worrying about what your Eastern brethren are up to . . .

We'll be O.K., Big Guy, and we've come a long way . . .maybe!

Alex

i dont think its a ukrainian-greek patriarchate the orthodox churches wont like, i think they dont like its existence period, as well as any other eastern catholic church, that being said, rome should pull the patriarchal trigger