www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Rome says no go for UGCC Patriarchate

Yes, when you hear lines as we heard tonight like "You have imitated Ham, that spurner of his father, my soul"..."Have you heard of Job, who was made holy on a dunghill, O my soul" (Great Canon excerpts for Tues. night, first week) you know it's Lent.

the ugcc deserves to be elevated to a patriarchate, by number it is the largest eastern rite church. its nice to consider what the orthodox "sister churches" out of respect say but not to the point where it rules us. the orthodox will never be in favor of the ukrainian greek catholic patriarch, and thats not even the problem there, they disagree with alot of the catholic faith in general and even consider it heretical so does that mean renounce our beliefs? no

I got sad when I read the news. It's kind of hard to believe that The UGCC has friends in the Vatican and it's obvious that we don't have any in Moscow either, but I still believe that something's going to happen and that both Moscow and the Vatican are going to have to swallow.
By the way, if Cardinal Kasper happens to trasspass my territory, he better run because I'm setting the dogs loose.
Lauro

Instead of setting the dogs loose on him, why not organize a SUM 'rij' (or two, or three, or four) and train them to chain themselves to the Vatican Embassy . Just like the good old days .

Diak,

You youself said you're not a fan of the CCEO. So do you really think the Code should stop the erection of a Ukrainian Patriarchate? I don't. Canon Law isn't sent down directly from on high, and I don't think the Vatican would suspend communion with the UGCC for disregarding it (in this manner).

All,

Well, y'all do know that the good Cardinal's nickname is "Kasper the Friendly Ecumenist," don't you?

Logos Teen

I'm not about to bother, but someone should post the relevant paragraphs from Orientalium Ecclesiarum.
Incognitus

Heres's the relevant paragraph from Orientalium ecclesiarum :

11. Seeing that the patriarchal office in the Eastern Church is a traditional form of government, the Sacred Ecumenical Council ardently desires that new patriarchates should be erected where there is need, to be established either by an ecumenical council or by the Roman Pontiff.

In the previous paragraph the decree says this:

10. What has been said of patriarchs is valid also, in harmony with the canon law, in respect to major archbishops, who rule the whole of some individual church or rite.

Father Deacon has kindly posted the relevant paragraphs. In view of the clear statement that "the Sacred Ecumenical Council ardently desires that new patriarchates should be erected where there is need", it would seem that there is an onus upon the Roman Pontiff to act accordingly. In four decades, not one new patriarchate has been elected, so it is not beside the mark to ask if the decree of the Ecumenical Council counts for nothing (in which case, the same is true of the clause which reserves such an act to the Roman Pontiff or an Ecumenical Council).
Incognitus

As we can see, comments have for some reason ceased. We don't know what to say or think. We don't know what will happen, but none the less these are historical events. Will Rome really put the Ukrainians on a second level again? Will the fate of the Ukrainian Greek Catholics once again be dictated by foreign forces? How will the people react? I wonder what our bishops are thinking? I hope things work out for the better.
Lauro

Dear Ukie Friends:

"Orientalium Ecclesiarum," the decree on the Catholic Churches of the Eastern Rite solemnly promulgated in 1964 by Pope Paul VI pursuant to the 2nd Vatican Council among others provide for:

(1) the recognition of existing (Eastern) Patriarchates in the Catholic communion and the restoration of the dignity and respect attendant to their Patriarchs; and

(2) the erection/creation of new Patriarchates for Eastern Catholic Churches where and when there is a need, under the "principles" the Decree enunciated AND in accordance with the provisions of canon law.

On the first, the Decree is unequivocal in its tenor: it is mandatory on the Church hierarchy to immediately enforce/follow that exhortation.

However, the Decree does not clothe the second with the same urgency and mandate, but spoke of the "principles," or guidelines to be found in canon law, under which NEW Patriarchates SHOULD be erected or created.

As one of the "principles," the abundant proof of the "need" basis for the erection/creation of NEW Patriarchates rests, I think, on the proponent Eastern Catholic Church and the Pope, through the appropriate Vatican dicastery, and as the Supreme Authority in this regard (shared with an Ecumenical Council), would then determine the sufficiency of such need for a NEW Patriarchate.

The Decree cites as a beneficial reason, i.e., proof of need for the erection/creation of a NEW Patriarchate, if it redounds to the "spiritual good of the faithful."

I must admit my own difficulty in visualizing an acceptable measure for a clear determination of such a standard.

This is just to clarify this specific authority and power the Pope possesses and which he can exercise unilaterally, under the 1964 Decree, as further treated in the 1992 Eastern Code of Canons.

But first the NEED has to be "fleshed."

AmdG

Check the Latin text; the key word is "exoptat". When you've done that, check the background (Edelby's book on the decree is the most complete commentary I know of). As to fleshing out the need, that has been done repeatedly. When the entire Ukrainian Synod of Bishops unanimously petitions the Pope to do this, one may take it for granted that there is a real need.
Incognitus

Here is the likely senario for the eventual establishment of a Patriarchate in Kyiv / Kiev:

(1) Elect a Ukrainian president who is pro-Greek Catholic Patriarchate in the 2004 elections (ie; Victor Yustchenko and his wife Katia who is a UGCC member).

(2) The UGCC hierarchy seeks support and immediate recognition by foreign churches for the Patriarchate when it is declared (ie: line them up).

(3) New Ukrainian president seeks support and immediate recognition by foreign governments for the new Patriarchate when it is declared.

(4) Once comprehensive support is attained, UGCC hierarchs declare a Patriarchate. Crowing takes place at St-Sophia Cathedral in Kyiv.

(5) UGCC hierarchs in tanden with Ukrainian government request official recognition by Vatican of Patriarchate.

(6) SUM (Ukrainian Youth Association) members chain themselves to Vatican Embassies around the world with 'protest camps' until Rome makes declaration official.

(7) Declaration is made by Rome.

Didn't Kyr Lubomyr state in the interview that was posted (I think) by Diak a day or so ago that he (Lubomyr) did not want government intervention in the issue of the Patriarchate?

That's very possible, however, he most certainly means no government interferance with the CURRENT Ukrainian and Russian presidents and their administrators. President Kuchma of Ukraine will never publicly support the UGCC over the ROC 'cause he is a 'scardy kat' of the tough guy next door (ie: Putin).

Russia's Putin is a KGB 'old boy' and he is currently replacing his entire senior government staff with - you guessed it; KGB 'old boys'. Further, he is expected to win the 2004 general elections. So we can't expect anything progressive or honest from that regime for some time. The Russians want to go back to the 'good old days'.

The situation in Ukraine is very different. The progressive Christian Democrat president 'wannabee' Victor Yustchenko would be very supportive of the UGCC Patriarchate. He has no choice, his wife is a member of the UGCC and what the wife says..... Further, he has no problem speaking to Putin as an equal.

There are several RISU (Religious Information Services Ukraine) articles which have appeared today (February 27, 2004) which clearly support my last two posts.

(1) Marinowych of Lviv's (Ukraine) Catholic University has openly stated that there are Roman Catholics who are against the Patriarchate.

Translation: There are Vatican curialists (ie: Kasper and Maj) who will ALWAYS BLOCK the process of establishing a Kyivan Patriarch because THIS IS WHAT THE ROC WANTS.

(2) Marinowych has also stated that the Russian Orthodox Church will always block the process of establishing the Kyivan Patriarchate.

Translation: the Russians understand how their church will no longer be the largest Orthodox Church in the world if the Kyivan Patriarchy is established, therefore they must block it or be forced to be number 2.

(3) Patriarch Husar has clearly sent a delegation of pro-Kyivan Patriarch national Ukrainian government deputies (Victor Yustchenko crowd) to Rome to make the plight of Ukrainian Patriarchalists known. He has also indicated that the Pope is for the Patriarch but there are other curialists who are against it.

Translation: ACTIVISM ! - SUM (Ukrainian Youth Association) members be prepared at any time to chain yourselves and establish protest camps at every Vatican embassy around the world. As Ipreima has stated: "there is evil in the Vatican" and it's up to us to get them evil spirits (ie: Kasper the Ghost and company) out of there.

Steps 1, 2, and 3 are happening in tandem. It's pretty much rolling out the way I have stated above.

ORGANIZE YOUR YOUTH TODAY !

10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5.......