www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Western Attendance at the Early Councils

I've always found interesting something that I have heard yet have yet to confirm, and I'm wondering if anyone here can.

I've heard that for at the very least for the first few ecumenical councils, that the attendance was overwhelmingly Eastern.

First Council of Nicea - of the approx. 300 attendees, only 4-6 were from the West.

First Council of Constantinople - of the approx. 140-160 attendees, no one from the West was there.

Council of Ephesus - of the approx. 200 attendees, only 5 were from the West and they got there late.

I need to call a friend of mine who told me this to get the info on the other councils, or research the web, or go to the bookstore.

Once again, I do not know this for certain and I am seeking confirmation.

I'm not trying to make a point I'm just inquiring about it.

thanks,

Monomakh

That is my understanding as well.

Chris

I will look for a webpage that I used to have bookmarked that discusses historical attendence records of the Councils.

Several of the first seven were attended by well less than 20% of the world's bishops and of those, in several cases the Latins accounted for only 1% of those in attendence.

The popular imagining of the early councils as being all the bishops of all the Christian world, east & west, coming together under one roof to discuss and debate... Well that isn't the historical picture.

Recently I listened online to a talk given by Deacon Alex Jones (RC) about his experience in Africa. In one conference he attended the priests who were without recourse to trains plains and automobiles walked hundreds of miles to attend - for some it took days or weeks. That was just in one region of Africa.

It helps to give a picture of the difficulties of travel in the pre-modern age. Distance, safe passage and travel time precluded still wider attnedence - neverminding the fact that for some bishops to have attended from the farthers outposts (provided they got the invitation in the mail in time) would have entailed weeks, months or years away from their sees.

The notion that these councils were universally attended (all the bishops) or proportiaonally represented (East, West, Orient) is just not the case.

Yes, Monomakh, and since the representatives of the West were so few, and these councils dealt primarily with Eastern issues, us Westerners shouldn't consider them ecumenical!

That logic sure does sound familiar...

Alexis

Travel such long distances was very difficult in them days. I imagine that travel from Rome to Constantinople took months and was a dangerous journey. E-mail was slow because the internet had just been invented.

-ray

You can say that again! LOL.

Actually that logic doesn't apply at all, since the West has accepted and continues to accept these councils as Ecumenical through Papal, Regional, and Local approval. Whether the approval occurs at Council or post-Council is really irrelevant.

Also, the disciplinary matters strictly pertaining to Easterners do NOT necessarily apply to the West unilaterally, such as Canon 20. No one today claims that since Nic�a is Ecumenical and accepted by all, that kneeling by Latin Church members means they are in violation and therefore to be excommunicated.

My tongue-in-cheek point was there was a REASON these councils were accepted as ecumenical by the West, and it didn't have anything to do with lack of Western representation or focus on Western issues. You just served to back up my point.

I'd hope kneeling doesn't get you excommunicated, since I attended a Greek Orthodox church this morning where everyone knelt for the consecration...

Alexis

Of course today is a Monday and the canon only refers to Sundays..

Nonetheless, there is also a reason why some Easterners refer to these Councils as General and not Ecumenical in the truest sense..

I attended the Greek Orthodox church yesterday (which was a Sunday). I don't know why my post says 2:49 AM, since I didn't post it at that time.

Alexis

Yup, we do, and I like that we do.

How did you like the service?

If you don't mind me asking, what brought you there...(a pretty Greek Orthodox girl, per chance?--just teasing!)

Regards,
Alice

I did indeed like the liturgy, Alice. I'd been there a couple years before when I was a freshman.

No, unfortunately it wasn't a pretty Greek girl, though I do know a few of those! It's because the Mass is so terribly dismal at the Catholic parish here that occasionally I need a dose of liturgical sanity, and don't want to drive over an hour and fifteen minutes to the cloest Traditional Mass!

Alexis

Clearly you were NOT a regular participant at the Catholic Answers Forums ECF folder! I have actually heard numerous "convert-dox" make just that accusation.

Dear Friends,

With respect to kneeling, when the ranks of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada began to swell with the influx of disaffected UGCCers way back when (to this day, 90%, I am informed, of UOCers are descendants of those UGCCers), there was a problem since the new converts were used to kneeling twice during the Liturgy.

What the Metropolitan Ilarion Ohienko did then, was get them to kneel at the Great Entrance and then for the Canon. Everyone would then stand for Holy Communion - a slight variation on what the converts did as UGCCers and they still do this to this day in many parishes.

In addition, the Old Rite Orthodox make a prostration at the end of the prayer "It is truly meet" all the time, including on Sundays. It is a point of discussion between them and the ROC, given the canons against kneeling and prostrations on Sundays.

In the Latin Church as well, kneeling is a sign of respect to the Lord, something taken over from the medieval genuflecting before princes and kings. In the East, kneeling is exclusively an expression of sorrow and penitence for sin and is not related to the same idea of respect. Standing symbolizes the Resurrection, and this is how the Ecumenical Council understood it, which is why it proscribes kneeling on Sundays and throughout the Paschal season.

Alex

A slight clarification, probably you just skipped over this as I'm sure you know this from your historical studies; we are supposed to genuflect on the left knee for kings and such, but genuflect on the right knee for Our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ.