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Dec 29th, 2019
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Joined: Jul 2007
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Wasn't that on an episode of "Diagnosis, Murder"?
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Forum Keilbasa Sleuth Member
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I love Negro spirituals! But everything has a time and a place, and things that work for some don't work for others.
I've attended a black church where everyone sang with gusto these types of songs. It was a moving, authentic experience.
But when 21st century (mostly non-black) Catholics try to sing 19th century Negro spirituals, the result is nothing less than pathetic and disastrous. I hate to use such strident words, but I really can't phrase it in any other way. Black spirituals from *black people* in an appropriate venue and situation can be inspiring and, as I said, feels authentic. In the wrong setting (i.e. the Catholic Mass), it seems self-consciously vain, terribly artificial and painfully executed. They even steal the dignity of those songs by those of us who have to suffer to hear them from such an artificual crowd, which is something of an affront to those songs' authors and the ones who sing them convincingly.
Alexis There you go with another ethnic word that is totally not the social norm anymore! Good grief Alexis, is Clarke county rubbing off on you?
Last edited by Orthodox Pyrohy.; 11/24/07 07:26 PM.
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The words to on eagles wings are fine, and I have never had any objection to them. It's the music that's totally cheesy and lacking in any kind of sacred character - something Pope Benedict keeps stating as necessary for church music. It's by Michael Joncas who missed his time and calling by not composing silent music scores. He writes some of the most horrid music I have ever heard. And yes, he has written far, far worse than on eagles wings. He wrote a setting of the Magnificat that a crazed local choir director pulled out for a diocesan function. It would have been appropriate stylistically for camel herding, since it had a "Lawrence of Arabia" tone. Define cheesy and sacred-ness.
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Saying "black people" isn't appropriate? It's respectful where I come from and in where I live, and so I will continue to use it.
Is it offensive for you to be called "white?" It doesn't offend me.
Though my friend's mother is African-American; she is a white woman of English descent from South Africa!
Alexis
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Let's not be so touchy about descriptions. Sheesh. Come on! How about giving Garrett (Logos-Alexis) a break?  I lived in NYC most of my life, and I now live right outside of it, so all network news and newspapers for me are NYC news, and I can tell you that many African-Americans still call it the 'Black community'. Though my friend's mother is African-American; she is a white woman of English descent from South Africa Now that must really put her in a world of her own!!  Alice
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A friend of mine who is Egyptian invariably describes himself as African-American. Drives people crazy!
Fr. Serge
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When I was in school we had a doctor of some ancient African descent.
One of the patients insisted that the doctor was African American, to which the doctor replied I was born in Jamaica and have Canadian Citizenship, there is nothing American about me!!!
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This thread is now off topic. Either keep the posts on the subject or maybe it is time to close the thread. No further warnings will be given on this thread.
In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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Pope Benedict has told us to look to the models of the past - Gregorian chant and polyphony - as models for sacred music used in the Mass. Joncas aint' it. It has to do with everything in the church, heaven on earth, being set aside for the service of God. The instruments, the vessels, and the music are set aside exclusively for holy purposes. They are not mirrors of what is going on outside in the world.
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I'll stick to the polyphony, gregorian and anglican chant, and solid hymns from the Hymnal 1982 that I hear and sing most every week at the Anglo-Catholic parish I've been attending. I think that dignified, reverent, and timeless are the qualities church music must have, regardless of the period that they are written in. The pope is right for holding these up as models, it's another thing to have them in practice, especially in the US.
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I say good for Pope Benedict! The Vatican should really be a world leader in liturgical music, but I've had qualms with what I've seen in the past few years. It would be good for them to set an example of how it's "done right" for the rest of the Latin Church.
I was going to give my two cents on the "Eagles Wings" controversy, but I'll post that in a new thread.
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Marty didn't write either one of these. As sentimentally appreciated as these tunes may be, I'm not sure we want to be establishing the standard of good Church music based simply on what people like or know. We must recall our obligation to give God the best from our treasury of resources. Contemporary stuff might tug the heart from time to time, but we need music that is worthy of the God who created our entire being, not just our emotions.
Many Years
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We have a similar problem in the East. One frequently encounters Divine Services sung to the modernistic music of the likes of Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky, Bortniansky and ilk. Whilst beautiful musical compositions, well worthy of any concert hall, I question their validity in actual Divine Services. I mean, are we there to worship God, or to hear a concert? My own druthers lie more towards Obikhod and Novogorod chants. Plain old Kievan Plain Chant is quite beautiful, as well as the Prostopenije of the Carpathian peoples. Maybe I'm a stick in the mud, but if it ain't in the Sputnik Psalomschik, it doesn't belong in Church.
My 2 kopechki,
Alexandr
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Difficult question. I do not think that the works of the
composers in question should entirely be excluded from services
in the Eastern Churches, nor that the Masses of Mozart and
Haydn, for example, should be excluded from the Latin Church
These works do give glory to God. I agree that they should not
be used at all frequently.
I trust no one has ever attempted a guitar Divine Liturgy?
Give thanks!
Edmac
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Saying "black people" isn't appropriate? It's respectful where I come from and in where I live, and so I will continue to use it.
Is it offensive for you to be called "white?" It doesn't offend me.
Though my friend's mother is African-American; she is a white woman of English descent from South Africa!
Alexis It was the word before spiritual that I meant.
Last edited by Orthodox Pyrohy.; 11/25/07 01:52 PM.
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