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Originally Posted by Orthodox Pyrohy.
It was the word before spiritual that I meant.


As it happens, that particularly genre of music is known around the world as 'Negro Spirituals', with no pejorative overtones.

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Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
We have a similar problem in the East. One frequently encounters Divine Services sung to the modernistic music of the likes of Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky, Bortniansky and ilk. Whilst beautiful musical compositions, well worthy of any concert hall, I question their validity in actual Divine Services. I mean, are we there to worship God, or to hear a concert? My own druthers lie more towards Obikhod and Novogorod chants. Plain old Kievan Plain Chant is quite beautiful, as well as the Prostopenije of the Carpathian peoples. Maybe I'm a stick in the mud, but if it ain't in the Sputnik Psalomschik, it doesn't belong in Church.

My 2 kopechki,

Alexandr

It is so funny to see the music of these great composers, commissioned by Peter the Great, who were, ofcourse contemporary for that time, to be compared with the modern twentieth century music of Roman Catholicism!

No offense to my Roman Catholic brethren, but atleast Peter the Great did commission something ethereal and beautiful, whether or not it is acceptable to some Russian Orthodox. wink

Alice smile

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Originally Posted by Edmac
I trust no one has ever attempted a guitar Divine Liturgy?
Give thanks!

Edmac

Unfortunately, I have witnessed one at Sts. Cyril & Methodius Cathedral in Kosice, Slovakia. In another posting on this forum (Re: Checking in with the Old Country Post #261214 - 11-09-2007 08:28), I supplied links to photos from Kosice showing this.

Ung, you said that you have witnessed one there as well, right?


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One frequently encounters Divine Services sung to the modernistic music of the likes of Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky, Bortniansky and ilk.

Bortniansky modern?!!! He was a composer during the reign of Catherine the Great! Generally, he's considered Baroque.

Plus, I'm not sure he ever really did a setting of the Divine Liturgy. Most of the recordings of his music are for religious concertos meant to be sung after the liturgy. Apparently these were a favorite of Catherine.

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No offense to my Roman Catholic brethren, but atleast Peter the Great did commission something ethereal and beautiful, whether or not it is acceptable to some Russian Orthodox.

Tell me about it! We went from Palestrina to Marty Haugan in the span of ten years.

Here's some good music:

http://www.s-clements.org/Music_AudioLibrary.html

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Originally Posted by Alice
Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
We have a similar problem in the East. One frequently encounters Divine Services sung to the modernistic music of the likes of Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky, Bortniansky and ilk. Whilst beautiful musical compositions, well worthy of any concert hall, I question their validity in actual Divine Services. I mean, are we there to worship God, or to hear a concert? My own druthers lie more towards Obikhod and Novogorod chants. Plain old Kievan Plain Chant is quite beautiful, as well as the Prostopenije of the Carpathian peoples. Maybe I'm a stick in the mud, but if it ain't in the Sputnik Psalomschik, it doesn't belong in Church.

My 2 kopechki,

Alexandr

It is so funny to see the music of these great composers, commissioned by Peter the Great, who were, ofcourse contemporary for that time, to be compared with the modern twentieth century music of Roman Catholicism!

No offense to my Roman Catholic brethren, but atleast Peter the Great did commission something ethereal and beautiful, whether or not it is acceptable to some Russian Orthodox. wink

Alice smile

Peter the Great (that is, Peter I, Tsar of Russia, if you are referring to that "Peter the Great") lived from 1672-1725.

Sergei Rachmaninov lived from 1873 to 1943, and spent the last years of his life in California.

Peter I. Tchaikovsky lived from 1840 to 1893.

Dmitri Bortniansky lived from 1751 to 1825. He's probably the only one of the three who actually and regularly composed acapella choral works designed for use in the Orthodox liturgy, so critcizing his music because its used in an Orthodox or Eastern Rite church service is like criticizing a Roman Catholic church for using the "Kyrie" melody from one of Bach's masses.

I'm having trouble seeing the connection between Peter I and these other Russian composers.

And while I haven't read every post in this thread, I have to say that generally, I am in agreement that the Roman Catholic musical tradition is probably the poorest in all Christendom. But this is not just because of the post Vatican II reforms and the "hippies" that took over the reigns of liturgical music. The whole concept of the Tridentine Mass does not encourage congregational participation. The priest is set apart, facing away from the congregation, and the language is foreign. The priest is doing ALL the "heavy lifting," both in concept and practice. (I know a person in the congregation of an Eastern rite church, an Orthodox church, or even a Protestant church could technically sleep through the service, but there is a much greater expectation and concept of individual participation). Vatican II reforms sought to bring the congregation onto more of a level plane in the course of the Mass -- make each participant more responsible. One could argue that the efforts to do this either didn't work or went too far afield from established principles of scripture and church tradition, but I think the intent was right. But the musical atmosphere in Roman rite churches has not just the 60s hippie mentality, but hundreds of years of a concept that the congregation did not necessarily participate, and certainly didn't SING.

There can be a lot of criticisms offered up about Orthodox or Byzantine Liturgy by any number of camps, but one thing they cannot say is that Eastern Rite churches do not SING. And because of the emphasis on vocal musical expression, the concept of participating is much more natural.

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The Westernisation of Russia was begun by Peter the Great (1672 � 1725). In the early 18th century this western leaning at the time of the reign of Empress Anna (1730-40), led to a preoccupation with European, especially Italian, art, architecture and music. Italian, and later in the century, French operatic styles became extremely popular. Foreign creative artists were enticed with lavish incentives to come to the court of Saint Petersburg.

Prior to Peter the Great, musicians in Russia had no contact with the sounds of Western Europe; they developed their own beautiful and unique musical styles, which are not often heard today (although they are extensively quoted by Rachmaninov). Beginning with Italian composer Francesco Araja (who presented the first opera seria in Russian in 1736), Russia's musical life was dominated by foreign musicians into the 19th century....

http://www.roq.org.au/music/classical_music


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P.S. I made an error in saying that they were commissioned by Peter the Great--I meant the spirit of their music, ie: westernizing, was first entertained by Peter the Great.

Alice

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Originally Posted by Alice
P.S. I made an error in saying that they were commissioned by Peter the Great--I meant the spirit of their music, ie: westernizing, was first entertained by Peter the Great.

Alice

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Interestingly though, if you continue to read the article you link to, it discusses how hard Russian composers in the 19th and 20th century worked to preserve Russian's unique musical traditions.

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Quote
It is so funny to see the music of these great composers, commissioned by Peter the Great, who were, ofcourse contemporary for that time, to be compared with the modern twentieth century music of Roman Catholicism!

No offense to my Roman Catholic brethren, but atleast Peter the Great did commission something ethereal and beautiful, whether or not it is acceptable to some Russian Orthodox. wink

Alice smile

So did the Emperors, Kings, and Bishops of the time.

See, Mozart's Masses etc...

What has happened with our modern Catholic music would be for President Putin or Patriarch Alexij to commission a Divine Liturgy from one of these guys:

http://www.aquarium.ru:8083/main.html

http://www.nautilus.ru/begin.htm

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Originally Posted by Dr. Eric
Quote
It is so funny to see the music of these great composers, be compared with the modern twentieth century music of Roman Catholicism!

No offense to my Roman Catholic brethren, but atleast Peter the Great did commission something ethereal and beautiful, whether or not it is acceptable to some Russian Orthodox. wink

Alice smile

So did the Emperors, Kings, and Bishops of the time.

See, Mozart's Masses etc...

What has happened with our modern Catholic music would be for President Putin or Patriarch Alexij to commission a Divine Liturgy from one of these guys:

http://www.aquarium.ru:8083/main.html

http://www.nautilus.ru/begin.htm

Ofcourse! Please forgive me if I have offended...but notice, I said 'modern twentieth century music'. I am moved to no end by Gregorian chant and the great and famous composers of Protestant hymns.

In Christ,
Alice

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I think we agree but are talking past each other. smile

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I demand that the moderators ban the word "Kumbaya" from this Forum forever and ever, Amen! just seeing the word wants to make me woof all over the keyboard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Much Love,
Jonn

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Now, Jonn, don't be so intolerant. People who sing, er, that
song are God's children, too. Perhaps if Fr. Serge would
translate it into Old Irish and have someone set it to a
traditional Russian chant it would be more acceptable. At least
we wouldn't understand what was being sung. Ditto for that
other old favorite, "Michael, Row the Boat Ashore".

Edmac

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I've said once before how in our Methodist hymnal at my old Church, "Kumbaya" is LITERALLY right next to "Kyrie Eleison" *set to Russian chant*.

Alexis

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