www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Cardinal says "True Church" is Roman!

Please, Please!
Since when do we base our spirituality on one person's "opinion?.....Me thinks we react too much...say before: thinking? Forum paritcipants:
O you of little faith!

Nik,

You are incorrect.

While the website itself is dedicated to providing information about the Byzantine Catholic Church in America the Byzantine Forum has always been a pan-Byzantine and pan-Eastern Christian forum and will always remain so. This is the reason that it was titled "The Byzantine Forum" and does not have the term "Catholic" in the title. This is clearly stated on the purpose and rules page that one reads and agrees to during the registration process.

What Anastasios did say was that he was creating a new forum since he felt that this was not an appropriate place for the Orthodox to participate because he felt that this forum was too Eastern Catholic leaning. I disagree with his belief as I think it is time for all Eastern Christians to work together to provide a common, positive witness of Christ whenever possible rather than keep splintering off into more and more groups. [Dustin is certainly welcome to clarify his post of last spring.]

I did just look in at your site and it is nicely done. I noted that there appears to be more discussions of the Roman Catholic Church and the issues currently facing her than there is here on the Forum. There also appears to be more discussions of Orthodoxy and the issues facing her here on The Byzantine Forum then there are on your board. I thought that rather ironic. You also should have credited "JoeS" from Abington, PA for his original post that you cross posted here. I will also note that most of the posters on your board seem to have found a slight against Orthodoxy where there was none.

I understand that you are in the process of converting from Byzantine Catholicism to Orthodoxy (not in communion with Rome). Might I make be so bold as to offer a suggestion? Learn to deal with the bitterness that remains from your experiences in the Byzantine Catholic Church (it is evident in your every post). I am sorry that you had a bad experience in our Church and apologize for it on behalf of all Byzantine Catholics. Concentrate on the sweetness and truth found within Orthodoxy and forgive those Byzantine Catholics who have hurt you. It is only by offering such forgiveness that you can truly learn about Orthodoxy.

Prayers and best wishes,

Admin

Dear Father Michael,

Thanks for your words of caution and wisdom. Please friends, let us not over-react!

Dear Mor,

I have heard the nick-name for another place, but I am certain that it was not meant offensively, or as a criticism. The board in question was initiated at the time the last Star Wars movie came out, and if I am not mistaken another title from that film was coined there for this forum? (Who was it that invented the title "death star"?) I thought that it was rather humourous (but I know this is dangerous on the internet, as humour is so easily misunderstood).

That such a nickname for the Byzantine Forum was coined, was taken in good humour. I am sure that it was not meant offensively, but rather playfully among friends. The nick-name "Clone" only arose at the same time, in the same context, and was meant in the same spirit of fun. Please don't be too upset.

Elias

But of course...

This is all well off-topic for the Lord Cardinal's article. I read it too, and I took it in the same spirit. It doesn't sound like one of his better writings, or more thoughtful contributions. In any case, I don't think it was a deliberate slight to the Eastern Churches.

It is however typical of the Roman Church. Despite impressive statements to the contrary, most of the time Roman Catholics speak of their Church in a monolithic way.

Elias

monolithic, in the sense of the OED = massive, immovable & solidly uniform.

Father Michael,

Thank you for your wise words of council!

-

Hieromonk Elias,

The term "death star" was not coined by anyone connected with the other board but was invented by Serge, a member of this forum who has not posted anything here in a long time. It was hilarious! The version displayed on his website included an exploding star much like the one in the Star Wars film.

Regarding the original topic of this thread, your comments are appropriate. The newspaper article only took selective bits and pieces and it would be interesting to read the entire text. And you are correct, the Roman Catholic Church does speak as if she is monolithic. This is unfortunate but probably understandable since there are over one billion Roman Catholics, less than 30 million Byzantine and other Eastern Catholics and about 200 million Orthodox. All the more reason for us to form a common witness of the Christian East!

Admin

But did not one of your administrators make the comment at one point that this board was for "Eastern Catholics only" or words to that effect and that your board was for Orthodox...

Dear Alex,

I doubt that anyone said this place was for Eastern Catholics *only*. This forum is on an unofficial website for an Eastern Catholic Church, presumably is owned and run by Eastern Catholics, and many of the issues discussed have to do with those Churches, and many of the people here belong to those or other Catholic Churches. If Orthodox are welcome, and if Orthodox topics are discussed, that's great. But that doesn't change the fact that this is an Eastern Catholic forum. That's how I saw it when I joined, and a thousand or so posts later (plus a few hundred before the server crashed in 2001), I still feel that way. That's not a bad thing. And saying that does not of necessity give the impression that our board is for Orthodox only.

...thereby giving the impression that your board was a "clone" where Orthodox Christians may feel comfortable posting - implying that they could not here?

The remarks you cite would only give someone that impression if he/she read that into them.

I found that confusing, especially since the majority of Administrators there were, in all honesty, Eastern Catholics threatening to become Orthodox.

Threatening? Threatening whom? What is to be gained by threatening to become Orthodox? The very notion of "threatening to become Orthodox" is meaningless nonsense.

So your Board did, in fact, provoke the Administrator by making the above comparison between the two Forums i.e. one is for Orthodox, the other for Catholics.

Alex, no where did anyone from my site, be s/he administrator or member, say anything in this thread about this site, positive or negative. And yet, you claim we provoked the Administrator?

Does your Board prevent Catholics from posting on your Board? Does this Board ban Orthodox from posting?

No, and no.

As I see it, unless your Board issues a public statement qualifying its own view of this Board, i.e. that it is not some exclusive "Eastern Catholic Board implying it isn't for Orthodox, "clone" is really an appropriate term for it.

We didn't start our board because we were dissatisfied with this one. If we were, Anastasios and I would probably not have posted here anymore. And yet, we do, and I'm quite happy with it (if I wasn't, I wouldn't posted over a thousand times).

Since we didn't start our board as a reaction to this one, or to compete with this board or whatever, why do we owe anyone a public statement regarding how we feel for this board? Are you implying that, in starting a message board, we set out to challenge this board? An act of war, perhaps? Does the start of a website by members of this one always constitute a threat to this site? Come on now. Perhaps some posters on both sides have done that, but our administrators have never had anything bad to say about this board, whether here or on our site. I fear the Administrator's words here demonstrate that the same cannot be said for the Administration of this site.

"Clone" is a pejorative phrase, to be sure and suggests a lack of creativity, the idea of copying etc.

I agree with you. Anyone who read the words in context, either those of the Administrator or your own words, would clearly understand their meaning, and would know that they were not simply innocent remarks.

Unfortunately, the position taken by Anastasios with respect to the above, leaves your board open to the charge.

Do the words of the Administrator here leave this board open to any charges or accusations? Or are they OK simply because there are people here who perceive us a threat?

Don't take it personally, please. You didn't say that. Anastasius did.

I do take it personally, regardless of who said what you are referring to, because I love both sites. Anastasios' remarks are not what is in question here. He hasn't weighed in on this thread. He was never mentioned before you brought him up. He, nor his ideas, had no place in this discussion, which was merely over the Administrator's use of a "perjorative" with regard to our site. But instead of addressing the topic at hand, you at first join in the name-calling, then you apologise after reading what I had to say, and then you defend this sort of name-calling and turn this into a discussion about something else. I'm sorry, my friend, but I don't do politics.

Esteemed Administrator,

I stand corrected and apologise. I did remember Serge, but I thought he was one of those associated with the creation of the other place. I thought I had remembered that nick-name there, but my memory is failing...

I am sorry.

Elias

I would say Cardinal Dulles' remarks remain insightful. Seen in the context of his other works that he claims he still affirms, I am certain no slight of the East is intended, though he clearly is one of those intellectuals who is a fully orthodox and, on balance, somewhat liberal and ecumencial Catholic.

Axios

Since this website and board are unofficial we do not have �official positions� and the disclaimer on the bottom of every page clearly states this.

The disclaimer claims this site does not officially represent the Byzantine Catholic Church. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about an official position of this board's administration.

Having said that I stand by my comments but am surprised that you would be offended that I consider your board to be a clone of The Byzantine Forum. Such a comment is not a condemnation but rather a simple statement of fact.

What you said is something anyone with a decent command of the English language would take to be perjorative at least. If you see an undesirable woman, do you go up to her and call her ugly, thinking that she won't be offended? Come on, now.

Clearly your board is a clone of this Forum. I have yet to see anyone seriously state otherwise.

Perhaps you should read what we have to say? Or are we not worthy of being taken seriously?

Barekhmor, Abun!

Father, I wouldn't be so annoyed if this was something that hasn't happened before. We saw how people took the whole "Death Star" thing on this forum and on ours, and we didn't like it. If, in that context, we were called a Clone, very well. We didn't start this, but we wanted to finish it. So we prohibited from our end anyone calling this site such names on our board. Apparently, such is not being done here. But if it's all in fun, I presume I can start calling this site the "Death Star"? No, I don't think either was done in a lighthearted spirit, Father. We do want to stop this. But when the name-calling continues, how can it be stopped at all?

Dear Mor,

So I did read that title there! I suppose you are right, and it probably should stop now, but I still think it was only meant in fun, really.

Elias

Well, we can all say "Lord have Mercy" and "Most Holy Theotokos, Save us!" and move on, Can't we????
MOre things unite us then divide us, guys and girls!!!

Peace,
Brian

Mor,

Lighten up. There is a difference between an affectionate nickname and an insult. A clone is a copy. How could I dislike anything that builds on our foundation?

Regarding "official positions" I don't have one except that I wish you every success in service to the Church and hope that your efforts lead many to Christ.

I do wish that Nik had simply focused on the topic at hand rather than use this thread as another opportunity to promote your site.

Admin

Dear Administrator,

I will only address two of the points you make in this post.

]While the website itself is dedicated to providing information about the Byzantine Catholic Church in America the Byzantine Forum has always been a pan-Byzantine and pan-Eastern Christian forum and will always remain so. This is the reason that it was titled "The Byzantine Forum" and does not have the term "Catholic" in the title. This is clearly stated on the purpose and rules page that one reads and agrees to during the registration process.

I would suggest that the term "Byzantine" does not necessarily imply pan-Eastern, since there are many Eastern Christians who have suffered at the hands of their Byzantine Christian brethren, and for whom Byzantine isn't exactly the most inviting word. I don't think our people would've sided with Muslims against the Byzantine Christians if there was no other choice.

I will also note that most of the posters on your board seem to have found a slight against Orthodoxy where there was none.

I presume you are referring to the thread related to Cardinal Dulles' remarks. I can only speak for myself. When I read those remarks, I did not sense a slight to Orthodoxy. The Lord our God doesn't need me to defend His Body, as it is in capable hands. But when a Roman Cardinal, with whom Eastern Catholics are in communion, says something like the true Church is "Roman" and "Catholic", what does that mean for Eastern Catholics? If you find nothing objectionable in it, then neither do I, but I thought the emphasis on "Roman" in the Cardinal's remarks was interesting.

You are correct. Maybe another name indicating that this Forum is pan-Eastern Christian would be more suitable?

Since the cardinal gave these remarks in a speech in honor of the 40th anniversary of Vatican II and was speaking about how "the more conservative interpreters have won on the Vatican II legacy" it doesn't make sense to see this as an intentional slight against us Easterners, particularly when you read it in context with the Church's official teachings and with what Cardinal Dulles has stated previously regarding the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches. His choice of words reflects the style of someone who is in his eighth decade of life. When he speaks of "Roman and Catholic" he is speaking of the importance of the pope in the Church (as opposed to, say, "Anglican and Catholic").

It is my opinion that we are the ones who need to witness the light of the East to the West. We cannot expect one billion people to discover our witness when we keep breaking it into smaller and smaller pieces.

Admin (aka Pilot of "The Death Star")