www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Western Crucifix and Eastern Cross

Dear Dr Eric,

That could certainly be one of those three portions Origen mentions!

Alex

Dr. Alex,

Do you think that the part I posted is only a bit of it?

Dr. Eric

Dear Dr Eric,

I don't really know, but Origen insisted it was divided into three portions - it could have been further subdivided.

What is clear is that both East and West have well-developed Staurologies that are distinct from one another, but rich in meaning.

Crosses can also represent entire Particular Churches and traditions (i.e. the Huguenot Cross, Celtic etc.).

Certainly in Ukraine along the Carpathian border where there was pressure to become RC, the Ukrainian Catholic and Orthodox Churches tended to have a lot of three-Bar Crosses with the slanted footrest - even more than in Eastern Ukraine. That Cross became a "national" Cross.

Also, it is interesting that in Orthodoxy and ECism, a one-bar pectoral Cross actually represents a higher position than the three-bar pectoral Cross (the Kyivan Metropolitan has a one-bar Cross, for example, although this rule doesn't apply to the Old Believers).

Alex

Does that mean that a priest will have a 3 bar cross while the Metr. will have a 1 bar cross?

Fascinating!

Dear Dr Eric,

Yes sir! In the West, it is the opposite, with the Pope having a three bar Cross signifying his higher authority.

Alex

[Linked Image]

Pope St. Silvester

Who as far as I know never said "Sufferin' Succotash!"

Dear Dr Eric,

Yes, excellent! Proof positive that the West also has a three-Bar Cross!

This is the patron saint of my godfather, Sylvester Remeza whom I always called on the feast of St Sylvester (in the East, it falls in January).

I only saw him once in my life (not counting the day he held me for my baptism). I was 30 years old when I drove to Ottawa to finally see him in the flesh. After he opened the door, my first response to his greeting was, "Godfather how are you?! You haven't changed much since last I saw you . . ." )

It took him all but two seconds to chuckle loudly at that

And if my wife ever let me have a cat, I'd call him, "Sylvester" for sure!

Cheers, Doc

Alex

All the traditionalists I know want Pope Benedict to get rid of JPII's "twisted Crucifix crosier" and re-instate the old papal three-bar cross "crosier."

What self-respecting Byzantine would disagree?

Alexis

Alexis,

I think they also want him to go back to wearing the Triple Tiara as well. But, you and I both know that he actually took it out of his coat of arms.

I have the Holy Resurrection cross on me right now.

Tim

Dear Alexis,

Please do not take this offensively, but maybe you need to pull away from these "traditionalists" and the mindset for a while. The phrase "more Catholic than the Pope" comes to mind. One must always distinguish between traditional and tradition.

Being alive and kicking for only two thousand some odd years the Church continues to go through growing pains, the past forty or so being quite tumultuous as well as quite enlivening for the western church, all the while still preserving the deposit of faith.

Glory to God!

Bill...Roman Catholic traditionalist, born and bred.

By traditionalist, I mean those of us who value our Roman liturgical patrimony, both extant and extinct.

I would love to see the Pope with the three-bar cross/crosier.

And I'd love to see the Tiara back, too, but I'm not counting on it.

And the Sedia Gestatoria for inside St. Peter's. The Popemobile makes sense for outside, but the Sedia is a generous and charitable concession for those inside, all of whom wish to see the Pope. The Sedia (as well as the Popemobile outside) allow for more of the faithful to have the privilege andd satisfaction of seeing the Pope.

Thanks for your concern, Bill, I certainly do understand it, but we can never be wrong to cling to tradition!

Alexis

Dear Alexis,

I know your heart is in the right place.
When I was a kid every priest wore a cassock in and around the church and school grounds, every nun wore a full habit. About the sixth grade many of the nuns dropped the full habit but by the new dress were still easily identifiable as nuns.

Though priests and nuns should be indentifiable by their dress in public I don't want priests in cassocks and nuns in full habits as much as I want good, holy and orthodox priests and nuns. My point is there are tougher "rows to hoe" than the Pope's crosier.

God Bless,
Bill

Dear Bill,

But show me a priest in overalls who sits at the kitchen table with a leg on top of a chair and I'll show you a cleric who thinks that David didn't slay Goliath, but "kicked the crap out of him."

As I experienced to my horror at one time . . .

Alex

Fascinating! This sounds like the Old Believers held a view of Christ which is closer to that of the Latin Church than that of the Nikonian-reformed Russian Church?


Can anyone on the Forum elaborate on this topic?