www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Russian Election: 2 December

Alice and Alex;

I have heard conflicting accounts about Nicholas II and his
family and remain somewhat dubious about their canonization,
inasmuch as they were murdered, as far as I can see, for being
who they were politically and not religiously. I do not know
of any other "Passion Bearers" apart from Sts. Boris and Gleb.
Are there any?

No one has ever claimed that Rome was holy. We have had a fair
number of unholy Popes. To deny that would be plain silly. We
even had one young fellow who is reported (and I fully belive it)
who turned the Papal residence into a brothel. This, as far as
Catholic belief is concerned, has nothing to do with anything.
We do not claim that popes are preserved from sin, only that
they are prevented from teaching error, whatever their personal
characters may be.

I hold no brief for monarchism of any sort and am unmoved in my
opinion that the Romanov dynasty was a disaster for Russia. That the various Bolshevik leaders are claimed to be other than
Russian ethnically seems to me to be absurd. The Russian Empire
had absorbed all these peoples, therefore they are Russians.
Lenin was a Tatar? How many Russians do not have Tatar blood?
Stain was a Georgian? Indeed. So why then was he a citizen of
the Empire? Because his people had been conquered and subdued by
the Russians perhaps? And since when do Russians claim that
Ukrainians are not a part of the Russian people?

Given the history of the last century, with the Soviet monster
(a Russian monster) gobbling up its neighbors and murdering
large numbers of them, and given the unstable nature of the
Russian state, it would be madness not to arm our allies against
possible Russian agression.

We now have an ex-KGB colonel as head of the Russian state.
He now pretends to be an Orthodox Christian. Pardon my doubts on this matter. It was a very convenient conversion.

Edmac

The Soviet Union. particularly under Lenin and Stalin was perhaps the most evil empire the world has ever known, but it is no more. Russia is now moving in a more positive direction, and it's Communists who are protesting the election that gave United Russia victory. More and more Cold War rhetoric is popping up in America, yet it is the United States that according to former Naval officer Chalmers Johnson, who has over 700 military bases in 130 countries. Russia at the same time, as of July, had 25 bases outside it's borders.

I LOVE the Constitutional Republic of Samuel Adams, Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson etc, but as for this current New World Order global empire as described in the Wolfowitz Memorandum, I praise Vladimir Putin for standing up to it.

And St Mary of Egypt was a prostitute, and St Cyprian of Carthage was a sorcerer. Have you no faith that people can change? Was not president Bush I ex CIA? How does that differ from KGB?

As far as Passion Bearers, St Dimitry, the son of Ivan Grozny, comes immediately to mind. St Quadratus and those with him as well. ST Euphrosynus of Blue Jay Lake also.

Also, by your reasoning, should the west also not take the same precaution against Germany and Japan? Or is it because they are not Russian?

Alexandr

Well, as to that, the CIA differs from the KGB in that the
CIA was a cause for good while the KGB was a cause for absolute
evil.

Enlighten me as to who St Euphrosynus was.

Germany and Japan have shown no signs of returning to their
former ways. Has Russia?

Edmac

The CIA was for a good cause?

Isn't it sort of like how every single nation on Earth has a "Ministry/Dept. of Defense" and no one has a "Dept./Ministry of Offense"? - there should be no wars, considering no one willing to "offend"

Comparing the CIA and the KGB is like comparing apples to oranges. Both are linked to assassinations, the overthrow of foreign governments, shady arms deals etc.

No, no, I think you misunderstand. All I was saying was that if you think Russia's the cat's meow as you obviously do, why not move there?

On a different note, Germany and Japan shouldn't be treated differently than Russia or any other country. But they don't have a egomaniacal leader who's trying to squelch free speech, freedom of the press, is probably having people killed, etc. It's not Russophobia; last time I checked Russia was a democratic country (in name), and that's respectable. But Putin and his ilk seem intent on doing away with democracy and trashing the Russian Constitution in order to stay in power and ultimately wrest control from everyone else and gather it unto themselves.

Edmac is right that the idea of "Holy Russia" is simply wrongheaded. As is the idea of "Holy Spain" or "Holy France" or any of that mindless nonsense. Only the Church is Holy. States are never sinless.

I do, however, disagree with Edmac when it comes to the Romanovs; at least when it comes to Nicholas II and his immediate family.

As to Russia being hellbent on world domination, I do not subscribe to that idea. Indeed America seems to be more of that mindset than Russia, as Lawrence listed the numbers of foreign military basis, etc. I don't think that Putin's government is looking "outward" so much, certainly not as much as the Communists did. I think he only cares about Russia, and is more "inward" in his desire to rid Russia of any of the democratic vestiges that are left (and if things continue, pretty soon there won't even be any vestiges).

Alexis

I agree with Alexis on this point. Putin has suppressed individual liberties, and he has suppressed political opposition, and democracy is less and less a reality under Putin.

On the other hand, I agree with the Alexandr, et al., that we in the West (in general), and in the United States (in particular) have a big share in the responsibility of this.

I remember when the Soviet Union fell. At first, I was stunned -- I could barely believe what was happening, and I wondered if it was a ruse to dupe the West. But then, when I knew it was real, I rejoiced ! Finally, the tyranny of Communism would end; and Russia and Eastern Europe would be free again !

Oh, what a fool I was.

For freedom --real freedom-- to exist, there must be economic security. So what if there is freedom of speech if your belly is empty and there is no hope for tomorrow ? To me, that is just obvious. After all, didn't we see that in Europe during the 1930s ? Didn�t we see that fascism and nationalism can easily fill the void of hunger and shame . . . ?

And so, I naively expected the West --led by the United States-- to help Russia economically. I expected the same for Eastern Europe and the rest of the former Soviet Union to. I expected a new "Marshal Plan." Like the one that rebuilt Western Europe after World War II and which was the groundwork for Western European democracy, so I waited for the United States to take the lead in offering a similar measure of good will and solid economic help to Russia, Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union after the Fall of Communism in 1989. I waited for a Marshall Plan for the Former Soviet Union.

And I waited. And waited. And waited.

I waited throughout the end of Bush I's administration -- and nothing happened. I waited throughout the Clinton administration --all 8 years of it-- and nothing happened. I have waited through Bush II's administration -- and nothing happened.

Meanwhile, it's been 20 years (ok, 18 actually) since the fall of Communism. That is a lifetime for one of my nephews. That is a lifetime for a lot of people's children -- including in Eastern Europe, Russia and the Former Soviet Union.

And during that time, a lifetime for many, the people of Russia, Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union have known cold, hunger, corruption and want -- and shame, amidst the ruins of former glory. Meanwhile, the West talked democracy and brotherhood; but it practiced imperialism (by expanding NATO eastwards) and selfishness (by growing fat and warm). And the East was left hungry and cold and humiliated.

And thus, it is no big surprise that a nationalistic fascist (which is what I believe Putin to be) has taken power in Russia with the enthusiastic support of most of the people. The same thing happened in fascist, nationalist regimes in Western Europe during the 1930s. Does anyone remember Mussolini in Italy ?

And the West --especially the United States -- is greatly to blame. We knew that poverty and shame can produce fascism and nationalism; and we knew how to prevent that --by helping to provide economic security, like the Marshall Plan. And we failed to do so. We failed to help our neighbor in need. And now, we are reaping the consequences.

-- John