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Originally Posted by Edward Yong
gross. images like that should be forbidden.

I do not think that this icon is gross. I think that it is a tasteful rendition of the venerations and traditions of both the East and the West.

I think that which we need to contemplate is that the Lord and His holy saints do appear to different peoples differently within the contexts of their different cultures.

That certainly does not make one correct or one incorrect-- though, admittedtly, being a member of a certain cultural sensibility, one might not feel the same comfort level with another's cultural sensibility as one feels with his own.

Tolerance, respect and understanding are keys to bridging the great cultural divide of Christ's church. These virtues of love for our brethren in Christ have nothing to do with assimilation and/or adaptation.

In Christ,
Alice, Moderator

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Thank you, Alice, and I always appreciate your kind comments. I thank the Lord for you here!

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Dear Friends,

The East does indeed have devotion to the Sacred and Pierced Heart of Christ. There is discussion of it in St Nicholas Cabasilas' work published by St Vladimir's Press! Then there is St Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain who contradicts even St Alphonsus Liguori and says the heart is much more than just a symbol of love - it is the seat of love (sic!). And of course there are always my favourite Latinized Orthodox Saints like St Demetrius of Rostov whose writings on the Wounded Heart of Christ drew admiration even from Basilian priests writing in "The Light!"

The particular devotion to the exposed Heart of Christ is something that does exist in EC Churches and was most popular among our New Martyrs - a fact, nothing to make up there.

And, frankly, I prefer an Easternized image of the Sacred Heart rather than one of the "saccharine" Italianate types.

Alice is more than correct.

And St Nicodemus is of the same national origin as she!

Alex

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Would it have been possible to write an icon of the Sacred Heart of Jesus?

(I am personally uncomfortable with the flames, but I am illiterate with icons except for a few which were explained to me.)

Terry

Last edited by Terry Bohannon; 12/11/07 12:25 AM.
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Thank you, Alex. I am going to copy this, if you don't mind, and save it for the future, so I can research the saints you mention. The Sacred Heart is the Seat of Love... How beautiful and wonderful!!!

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I think attempts to blend some East & West traditions can ultimately confuse both. The Sacred Heart of Jesus may be transforming to Catholics & other Western believers; however, in the East, the nous, the soul & heart are one. Depict that in an icon!

Betty
A confused Eastern Catholic

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Originally Posted by Alice
[ . . .]I think that which we need to contemplate is that the Lord and His holy saints do appear to different peoples differently within the contexts of their different cultures.

That certainly does not make one correct or one incorrect-- though, admittedly, being a member of a certain cultural sensibility, one might not feel the same comfort level with another's cultural sensibility as one feels with his own.

Tolerance, respect and understanding are keys to bridging the great cultural divide of Christ's church. These virtues of love for our brethren in Christ have nothing to do with assimilation and/or adaptation.

In Christ,
Alice, Moderator


:::applause::: Well said, Alice !

-- John


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Originally Posted by Betty
I think attempts to blend some East & West traditions can ultimately confuse both. The Sacred Heart of Jesus may be transforming to Catholics & other Western believers; however, in the East, the nous, the soul & heart are one. Depict that in an icon!

Betty
A confused Eastern Catholic


I think there is room in Christ's Church for a spectrum of artistic expressions. There can be traditional Western religious art, and there can be traditional Eastern religious art, and there can also be blends.

I have no doubt that traditionalists (in both the West and the East) will endeavor to keep their respective artistic traditions unconfused.

I also have no doubt that some artists will attempt to blend the two.

It reminds me of Scotch. There are some very good single malts, and there are some very good blends too, and each kind of Scotch has its plusses and minuses.

My two cents.

-- John


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Originally Posted by Alice
Originally Posted by Father Anthony
Dear Joe,

I would strongly suggest first that you have them blessed. Even though they have been produced by a heretical group, the sanctification with Holy Water and the prayers of blessing should exorcise any demonic influences. Now, if you chose to give them to someone else or whatever, at least you will not have to worry about these influences following them. I strongly suggest that no matter what you simply do not throw away any icon, but rather if you inclined to dispose of them, do so in the proper manner with consultation of a priest.

I hope this helps.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

I refer everyone back to this post and its excellent advice before they panic. Father Anthony speaks as an Orthodox priest and this would be the Church's advice.

Alice, Moderator


Amen.

I'm sorry I overlooked this thread till now. My parish has some of their icons along the top of our iconostasis. Our bishop said they were icons, after long liturgical presence and use.

And, the ones we have aren't that bad artistically. They're not great, but they're not that bad either. The one of Theophany is actually rather good.

-- John




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With apologies to Alice, I continue to disagree (and I really would not advise Alice to attempt to donate a large Sacred Heart image to her parish church).

The point already made that private revelations are not binding on anyone is quite correct.

I am aware of Saint Nicholas Cabasilas's one reference to the "Sacred Heart". It is interesting precisely because it is unique.

It is possible to find people of spiritual importance who display this, that, or another aberration - that does not prove that we should follow them in the aberration.

Me, I remain much more impressed by Archbishop Joseph (Raya)'s comment on the "Sacred Heart". Anyone who knew him will know exactly what I am referring to, although I don't propose to quote it here, lest someone claim to be personally offended.

The heart is the Seat of Love? Well, one can find justification in the Scripture for the affirmation that the bowels are the seat of wisdom. Shall we have another pseudo-icon?

Fr. Serge

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Dear Father Serge,

No apologies to me are necessary. Charitable disagreement is healthy...and we are all entitled to our passionate opinions! smile

Oh, and don't worry, I would never think of donating an icon of the Sacred Heart to my parish! wink

Respectfully,
Alice

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I guess I personally was reacting to these private revelations from the viewpoint of having all these groups in our city.
They rival one another with this revelation and that revelation and treat a person who does not share their zeal as someone who is outside the will of God and some even question if they are Catholics or not.
Personally I have a devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, but like Alice I do not share their same artistic taste.
The one version of the Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary that I do like, is the one by Chambers.
Stephanos I
Now to find a nice hand written Icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Help.

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To All,

May I say in posting the link to the icon of the Sacred Heart, which Alex referenced in the post above mine, I was simply pointing out an image done by a Catholic Christian, rather than the one done by "Monastery Icons". Canonical or not, I prefer such an image to many of the western style images that drip with sentimentality. I was not suggesting placing such an image in an Eastern church nor fostering a Latin devotion among Eastern Christians.

I hold in great esteem our +Holy Father John Paul II who exhorted us as Catholics to "breathe with both lungs". I may still be a rookie but I'm trying. Sadly I seem to sense both camps, east and west, are withdrawing from each other rather than moving closer.

In Christ,
Bill

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Dear Bill,

Don't worry, all is not as bleak as our good posters sometimes inadvertently make it seem. wink

In Christ,
Alice smile

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Dear Alice,

The Blessing of the Lord!

No worries - I know full well that you would do no such thing! Should you want any real icons, I can recommend some good iconographers.

with every blessing, fraternally in Christ,

Fr. Serge

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