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Bless, Reverend Father!

Well, unique or not, it certainly occasioned quite a large section of commentary in the Forward to the St Vladimir's Seminary Press publication of his work!

The Wounded Side of Christ, mentioned many times in the Octoechos services, is another matter, of course.

As I related to you when you were still here, I found the Sacred Heart image to be a great help in praying the Jesus Prayer/prayer of the heart. At that time, you suggested to me that I write that experience up and that perhaps the devotion could be "reconstructed."

I still hold fast to your suggestion!

Alex

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Dear rcguest,

Yes indeed. and, once again, it must be reiterated that the devotion to the Sacred Hearts is really RAMPANT in the EC Churches, especially the UGCC and was certainly most popular among the New Martyrs, including Bl. Paul Gojdich OSBM.

In entire areas in Ukraine and elsewhere, not to have an image of the Sacred Heart in the parish is unthinkable. To want to remove such would be considered: a) anti-Catholic; and/or b) part of an Easternization campaign akin to Russification.

A delicate matter all around. But we EC's should not act as if we don't have a strong history and contemporary experience of devotion to the Sacred Heart of Christ!

That would simply be silly and a denial of reality.

Alex

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Bl. Paul Godjich certainly lived in a time of widespread Latinization.

A denial of historical reality, but one that we should not consider insurmountable. As a personal belief, I think we can provide people with authentically Eastern expressions of His love for us. Also a personal belief, I believe we really should do our best to make that happen.

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I'm not sure just who is supposed to be denying what historical reality. But never mind, it's easy to think of historical realities which one would not deny but which one also would not wish to replicate - the morals of Henry VIII are an obvious case in point.

Greek-Catholic parishes without the presence of images of the "sacred heart" are not so scarce as Alex seems to think - in Toronto one can find several, without going to much trouble. Likewise in Rome. Likewise elsewhere. In fact, the list would soon grow so long as to be a bit much for the forum. Nor does it seems utterly likely that anyone is about to request a guide-book to sacred-heart-free churches. If it's any consolation, I can't honestly remember the last time I saw a sacred heart image in one of our churches; it has been awhile. On the other hand, I certainly don't go in search of them.

Devotions and prayers to stress God's love for us? We are not in the least lacking on this count; check our service-books and you'll find plenty.

Yes, John Paul II urged us to use both lungs. But I don't remember him - or anyone else - promoting some sort of image of the Lord Jesus Christ showing His "sacred lungs"!

One could engage in reductio ad absurdum on this point to a very considerable extent. I restrain myself, with some difficulty.

Fr. Serge

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Agreed!

Alex

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Bless, Father Archimandrite,

First of all, your comparison of the Sacred Heart devotion with King Henry VIII is surprisingly out of place and somewhat irreverent, whether or not one practices that devotion. Sorry if I'm out of place for pointing that out.

I never even once suggested that UGCC churches without images of the Sacred Heart are scarce - that is a bit of a tendentious reading into my post, don't you think? I'm not trying to promote this devotion, just simply indicating what the current realities in the wider UGCC really are. I find that "Orthodox in communion with Rome" have a tendency to believe that the entire UGCC is as they are. Frankly, I wish that it were so. But unless one has blinders on, that is not the case. And we can't rewrite history to show that our New Martyrs, including Pat. Joseph Slipyj, by the way, did not promote devotion to the Sacred Hearts (see his prayerbook published at Rome for instance).

And I've said that our liturgy has veneration for the Wounded Side and Love of Christ etc. No problem on my part and please calm down. I just hate it when people get emotional on this forum! wink

It is just that I'm a cradle UGCCer and that church is "my church" in a way that it never really will be for non-cradles. I know it very well and it is the love of my life.

Alex

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
It is just that I'm a cradle UGCCer and that church is "my church" in a way that it never really will be for non-cradles. I know it very well and it is the love of my life.

Alex

I will try and not get emotional about this statement then and say that this mentality can be taken to an unhealthy place (I am in no way saying you have, are, or ever will do so). I have seen it in some Ruthenian parishes that on the one hand maintain a lot of their heritage and on the other hand treat newcomers so poorly as to slowly dwindle for lack of conversion.

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Dear Byzantine TX,

While it is understandable that my words can be interpreted as you say, that was not my intention at all.

Fr. Archimandrite suggested, at least to me, that I don't know my church.

I simply said that I do and I do as someone who has always been within it, know the amazing devotional varieties of parishes in North America and E. Europe, and simply say that that is how things are. I agree that is not how they should be. But that is how things are. We may not like it, but we should not pretend otherwise.

I apologise for anything further that could be suggested by my words. Enough out of me for one day.

Alex

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I have a small icon of St. John the Evangelist. I can't imagine there being anything demonic associated with the image of a saint. Has anyone found any "secret messages" in the Monastery Icon of Saint John?

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Dear podkarpatski,

None thus far . . . wink

Have it blessed, just as one should have all icons blessed.

I sometimes fear that the icons from Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Brookline may make me even more stridently pro-Eastern . . . smile

Alex

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Dear Alex,

Please read my posts with some care before taking offense - I did not compare Henry VIII to the sacred heart devotion. Nor have I sent you any PM on the sacred heart devotion; what I have written I have written for anyone to read.

Glad to know you had a devout childhood - or at least an interesting one. I don't think I've ever known anyone to bring a cradle to Church.

I also can't remember when I happened to encounter anyone actual perform the "devotion to the sacred heart" - but I think it was in 1972, and in Hungarian. Hogy vogy? I've not gone out of my way to avoid it; just haven't run into it for the past 35 years or so. Since I do get around, that service is probably not as rampant as all that. Though I don't doubt that if you look hard enough you can find it somewhere.

Fr. Serge

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Bless, Father,

I never said you sent me a PM on the Sacred Heart devotion (?) I only said that this is what you told me over the phone when you were still in Toronto. If you don't remember, I do!

I will leave it to God to decide how devout my childhood, or the rest of my life was and will be. I thank God for all the interesting excitement of it all.

My parents were the ones who brought me, as a Cradle UGCCer, to Church for baptism. I've been in that Church, sans cradle, all my life and have never jumped ship or switched jurisdictions. My focus was solely on the UGCC, with all its interesting parishes, devotions, and practices that defy pigeon-holing by anyone.

I love my UGCC as it is, warts and all. I am thankful that it holds me in the cradle of its saving embrace still.

Alex


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Rock-a-bye . . .

Fr. Serge

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Bless, Father,

The memory of your beautiful, flowing beard still relaxes me to the point of restful, carefree slumber . . .

Z-z-z-z-

Your servant,

Alex

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Dear Father Serge,

Skimming back through the book "The Meaning of Icons", (hardly a book one can simply skim through), from the eastern standpoint and tradition I better understand your objections to the "Sacred Heart" being depicted in an icon.

However, I'm still puzzled over this and am trying to sort it out. I'm only left with questions.

The Roman calendar dates June 15th as the "Solemnity of the Sacred Heart". As a Catholic, if this is an approved feast in the Latin church, is it really wrong to have the traditional image done as an icon? You've pretty much already answered this so the better question is "Why is it wrong?".

Are icons of post-schism Latin saints permitted?

Can Latin Catholics even truly be iconographers or should the Roman Church simply leave iconography to the Eastern Churches?

I'm honestly trying to understand better and will not debate your answers, mainly because I could not :), and I really don't want to, and won't, make another post on this thread.

In Christ,
Bill







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