www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West unity of Catholic and Orthodox Churches is urgent

Joe, you noted, " in the Orthodox Church might look at the selfish use of birth control as being a lack of Christian perfection and a sin, but we aren't in a hurry to pronounce damnation because of it."

I was fascinated by your comment on birth control. I have never met an Orthodox priest (and I have been rubbing shoulders with them since 1975) who looked at birth control as something selfish and as being a lack of Christian perfection. They seemed to accept it as part of life. I am not saying there are not theologians who might find fault with it, but I've never heard any one take such a negative view of it on the Orthodox side.

JOHN:

Just got to read your long post. And I have to repeat what I said to Joe. Well said. Those who think that ecumenism will be easy are totally off the mark. Those who think that current Latin practice, especially as it has developed in the English speaking world, is some kind of yardstick are totally off the mark. Those who think that Orthodox Christians are somehow wandering aimlessly because they have been "deprived" of being united with Rome for the last thousand years are totally off the mark.

In my work, I've had lots of opportunities to sit, watch, and listen to those who do not share Communion with my Church. And the thought comes back to me again and again--here are people who have a relationship with Christ and WHO DON'T NEED US (AND ME) AT ALL. And that jars me each time. I guess it shouldn't jar me because I have had so many years of this sort of observation. But it continues to jar me because it emphasizes the disconnect between what I hear and see officially and what I know to be the case "where the rubber meets the road." And I'm not talking about people who have been hurt by conversions or their own bad experiences. I'm talking about the entire life of so many Church communities and ecclesial communities that seems to do well enough without reference to Rome at all--perhaps with the exception of those groups that have to mention anti-Roman themes constantly to shore up the faith of their members.

So, my brother, we've got the problem. I greatly agree with you about the seemingly eternal chasm between our two Churches in the form not only of theology and liturgy, but also in the area of lived-out experience. My father used to say that a man is not Christian by what he does on Sunday morning but how he lives his life the rest of the week. (In fact, I have also observed that in many Catholic homes that I have worked in officially there is no evidence whatsoever of Christian symbols--no crosses, no Bibles, no prayerbooks, nothing.) And for many of my co-religionists the rest of the week means no reference to God or their Christian commitment at all. Christ prays "that all may be one" and we have that chasm to bridge that makes it seem like we are not only NOT long lost cousins but different species altogether.

Maybe where we ought to start is with the words of our common father among the saints, John Chrysostom, when he says, "thousands and thousands of people crowd the churches, and of those thousands only a few hundred understand what it is all about, and of those few hundred only a handful take that knowledge and attain their salvation." There are those of us who stand with you already in much of what you find upsetting, irreverent, and scandalous. We swim upstream sometimes because we understand, perhaps incompletely and through a blurry prism, the reality of what makes the Orthodox Church the Orthodox Church. And our vocation is to learn, to appreciate, to understand, and to communicate all this to those around us so that maybe a light will go on in some of their minds.

For the sake of Christ, the Truth, keep being honest and keep posting.

In Christ,

BOB

Thank you brothers and sisters for your kindness. I do want to make another thing clear. I regard all baptized Christians as Christians and I do not believe that Roman Catholicism is without grace, nor do I believe that the protestant communions are without grace either. I just wanted to make this clear so that people know that I am not condemning individuals or saying that their Christianity isn't real.

Joe

John, I think I meant to say "selfish use of birth control," but I somehow jumbled it up. In general, Orthodox priests permit the use of birth control by Orthodox couples as long as it is not for selfish reasons. In Orthodox moral theology, it is the intentionality of the heart that matters most.

Joe

Well, I get a hint guys. Sorry that I don't sound negative in my posts about unity, and critical of the Roman Catholics, but my experiences are vastly different than Joe's, and I chose to articulate them differently. (Infact, my jurisdiction's archdiocese even has a department for interfaith marriages..)

Instead I will trust those appointed to look into all these issues, and I will also trust in love, good will and the Holy Spirit.

As a woman and a moderator, I prefer posters to watch their TONE --not necessarily their words or sentiments. Anger comes through posts, resentment comes through posts, touchiness comes through posts, and ultimately those overtones, not the sentiments, are what can offend some readers.

Have a good day,
Alice

Dearest Alice,

With respect to Christian love, understanding and experience, you don't talk the talk - YOU WALK THE WALK!

From more of a sociological point of view, which is my background, I never can separate values from praxis in any culture, ecclesial or otherwise. The two go hand in hand. As you Greeks used to say so eloquently, what is truly believed is what is practiced.

You are the only one on this thread who makes any sense, after all.

Is there something special going on in the Greek community today that we all should know about?

Kissing both your hands, I implore your blessing,

Alex

Dear Alice,

I think it is inevitable that people who have converted to Orthodoxy from Catholicism will have issues with the idea of unity that cradle believers won't. If you have gone through a process of wrestling with your conscience, of having to view theology, history, so many aspects of the Church in a different way, well it's not an easy thing to do and yes, we do have an emotional investment.

I accept your point that those of us who are Catholic converts can and should challenge anti-Catholic prejudice, most of which is based on hearsay and ignorance. And personally, I feel uncomfortable reading books by former evangelical Orthodox converts who seem to be doing no more than finding a new home for their old prejudices. But I don't know that it's realistic to expect former Catholics to be enthusiastic proponents for unity with what they've left.

You spoke of fears and I think you are right to do so. I left the Catholic church more in sorrow than in anger, sorrow for what had happened to the traditions of the west and at the quality of the modern liturgy. I would obviously fear Orthodoxy ever embracing that outlook. I don't feel I am being disdainful and hurtful by saying that I too cannot imagine having intercommunion with a Church which seems to be on a wavelength so different to our own.

I can also appreciate your concern for interchurch marriages, this is a huge issue in my own country, not just between Greek Orthodox and Irish Catholics but also between Irish Catholics and Protestants. I speak here from personal experience too. However, I accept the pain of eucharistic separation as part of the price I paid when I embraced Orthodoxy. This is part of the reason why we have an emotional investment and accompanying fears as converts.

Brigid

Dear Brigid,

I appreciate your charitable post, your thoughtful responses, and your concerns.

All,

In these threads, I often feel that posters are reading parts of posts rather than posts in their entirety. That becomes extremely frustrating.

So, let me, once again, TRY to make myself clear.

I take no offense to the very real issues facing intercommunion, spiritual unity, etc.... and the fears of persons in this respect.

I take no issue as a Moderator to someone articulating their stand against unity and why they feel that way. I also do not care to censor anyone about their opinions pro or against Catholicism or Orthodoxy as long as they state their opinions in as charitable way as Brigid has.

I DO take issue to posts that have such an angry and/or disdainful overtone that other posters (of Roman Catholic persuasion) are insulted...at that point, *the tone*, NOT the sentiment and/or opinion, have crossed the line of charity on this forum.

I sometimes find my Orthodox brethren whose faith teaches against 'the passions' to be the most 'passionate' against other faiths!

I did not write, in any of my posts, that I didn't realize these issues are real. Infact, if one goes back on this very thread, one will even see that I have my own annoyances with some of the stands of the RC church...(mainly that of ABC being equated w/abortion--personally I feel that this stand has done MORE to give ammunition to those in FAVOR of abortion rights than the opposite--a very real 'boomerang' effect, in my opinion.)

However, I will not debase the thread into a 'dissing' the Catholics (or Orthodox as the case might be) party because of it. This forum has NEVER allowed that for the four years I have been here. That is how some of the posts (that were surprisingly lauded and encouraged by others) came across to me and some other posters.

There is a fine line between charity and lack of it. The posters of this forum have generally known the difference.

As a Moderator, when I feel that a post is insulting or uncharitable because of its tone, that is my final say and I expect it to be as respected as it would be if it came from one of the Administrators, whether or not everyone agrees with it!


My final stand on the issue of unity was that I have faith in our able bodied representatives who are trying to 'walk the walk'. ...I also conceded that the walk may take a long time, as there will be many stops, until reaching its final destination.

I hope that I have made my points about this thread clear.

Again, I thank you Brigid for your very well articulated and charitable post.

Sincerely,
Alice, Moderator

P.S. Thank you Alex for your kind words.

So wonderfully said, as always, Alice! Thank you, again. I pray that we will all find it in their hearts to really receive and apply what you have said in our hearts!

Love you, dear Alice, just love you!

Alex

Excellent response, Brigid.

I too am of Irish descent, and when I converted to Orthodoxy, my Irish Catholic godmother had a fit. However, it was she who introduced me to the Eastern Catholic Church, which is our heritage as I am of Irish-Lebanese descent. The Eastern Catholic Church then served as a bridge to Orthodoxy. In fact, Bishop John Elya has said that the Eastern Catholic Church has often served in the reverse direction in which it was intended.

I also left the Melkite Church for Orthodoxy in great sorrow along with several friends. The journey was extremely painful, so much so that several of my friends aborted the journey and returned to Catholicism. One left and became a Protestant.

In fact, when a Catholic wants to convert to Orthodoxy, often the Orthodox Priest will make them wait up to three years, and in one case a person had to wait seven years before being Chrismated.

I heard of several cases where the Orthodox priest contacted the Catholic priest and told him to talk to his parishioner. This action embarrassed the Catholic party who abandoned the idea of converting to the East. I was also advised to talk with my Eastern Catholic priest before I left. This action was taken because of the Balamand Agreement.

Your point is fair enough: I apologize to any Roman Catholics and to anyone else who was insulted by my posts and by my lack of charity.

And now, let us apply this principle of charity a bit more broadly.

I object to the utter lack of charity that was in a certain post (#268860) by the now banned Arthur. He was insulting to the Orthodox by insisting that they (we) rejoin the Catholic Church.

That is because not all Orthodox agree with that view. Not all Orthodox want reunion with the Catholic Church. I realize that is a minority position at this Forum. However, it is an opinion that needs to be expressed and explored.

And that is because our Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) got a divorce 1000 years ago for a reason, and that reason still exists. Namely, we fundamentally disagree on certain core issues: especially the issue of the authority of the papacy. Furthermore, we have grown so different in mindset, attitudes and practices that I question how --as a practical matter-- such a reunion could take place. Hence, reunion now would have the effect of diluting or diminishing that which makes each Church distinctive. I believe in that which makes my Church distinctive, and I don�t want to give that up. I imagine that there are Catholics who feel the same way about their Church. Thus, I think it is important that our Churches recognize our differences and agree to disagree.

In short, I think that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church should work at being good neighbors -- instead of trying to live in the same house together. Living together now after a divorce of 1000 years would be too much, too soon. None of the underlying grievances and disagreements would be resolved; and an even worse separation could result.

Instead, I think that our churches need to learn how to live next to each other: in charity. In other words, we need to learn how to live with each other without hating each other, without trying to change each other, and without trying to force a reunion. Instead, our churches need to learn how to live next to each other in mutual respect and love. For example, instead of talking about remarriage, could we learn how to do things together again -- first? For another example, instead of reunion now, could we try to work together on common issues that challenge the Gospel -- issues of ignorance, immorality, hate, poverty, injustice and so on -- first? I think reunion now would be jumping the gun; I think learning how to live next to each other in charity is our task for today. Thereby, we could lay the groundwork for an eventual reunion in charity.

-- John

John,

I can fully appreciate where you are coming from here. But I also recall a good Orthodox priest friend with whom I had discussed the idea of intercommunion. He shared with me that he believed our Lord allows us to experience the pain of our separation by refusing each other the Chalice in order to spur us on to the goal of authentic Christian unity. His wisdom on this point moved me deeply and I have not forgotten it. (My point here is not to discuss the virtues of intercommunion, BTW. I believe there are reasons, circumstances and occasions to consider it from time to time.)

I think it is one thing to say we must respect our current situation as it is while working towards a reconciliation (and the points you outline - being good neighbors, for instance - are important first steps I believe). But it is quite another to say that we should resign ourselves to the separation. After all, what God has joined together, let no man put asunder!

Have a blessed Nativity!

Gordo

Dear Gordo,

It is good to have you back from where ever you had been. I see you are catching up and shotgunning out posts. That is good. We always appreciate your perspective.


or have I just been missing your posts and you went no where?

-ray

I am so happy to be among you people!

May the peace of the birth of Christ be in our souls.
-ray