www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Archbishop Ireland lives again

Please see this article, written on Rocco Palmo's blog "Whispers in the Loggia" about Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor's "Christmas message" to the growing Polish immigrant community in England.

"Days after new stats reported that, aided by a significant influx of Eastern Europeans, Catholic church attendance in Britain had surpassed that of the nation's Anglicans, the primate of England and Wales has brought his Tony Blair Conversion Honeymoon to a screeching halt by accusing the Polish newcomers of "creating a separate church":

Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, the Archbishop of Westminster, urged the Polish community to do more to learn English and integrate into local parishes, claiming the Catholic Church in the UK was in danger of dividing along ethnic lines as the number of Polish-speaking churches rose..."

Please use the link below to see the entire commentary:

http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/2007/12/cormac-pushes-poles.html

Panie zmiluj sie! Oops! I mean: Lord have mercy! Sorry your Eminence.

John K

Well - in a way I can understand it . Up here in civilisation [ ] we do have a huge community of Poles. In Aberdeen [ I think ] they are now publishing a newspaper in Polish.

On Sundays , while I am on the bus after DL heading to the coach station to go back to Glasgow, I pass 4 small Polish food shops [ as well as a largish chinese supermarket ] and this is in a 10 min journey

My own Community in Edinburgh has Poles as well.

Something my SF said to me a while ago does , I think apply here , no matter how well one learns a language and can speak it , hearing the Scriptural readings in Church in any language but the one that is your Mother tongue , is difficult - you do lose some of the nuances of the language.

I really don't think he should be singling out the Polish incomers this way - the same comments can be applied to every immigrant community of any Faith.

Plus ca change, plus le meme chose! (Sorry; this e-mail program will not do french diacritical marks).

I do wish that Cormac Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor would change his name. I can assure you that pastoral care for Irish-speakers in his bailiwick is virtually non-existent.

Failing that, someone should ask him to his face if it would not be better to provide pastoral care to the Polish contingent rather than risk a significant body of them deciding to telephone Scranton.

His predecessor did everything possible to block Anglicans who wished to become Catholic while maintaining a common identity of their own - in the presence and earshot of a good friend (who is now a Greek-Catholic priest) Cardinal Hume pronounced that "we have too many of these Uniate Churches already".

Fr. Serge

Fr Serge

You should be able to get the correct diacriticals

go to your menu bar and click on the wee flag there . On the pull down menu go to Show Character Palette.

Make sure that the View option is on All Characters and below that By Category should be highlighted.

Then go to European Scripts click on the wee arrow and go down to Latin and lo and behold you will get all the letters and accents etc you could possibly want.

Highlight the one you want in the bigger window - it will them appear in the box on the lower right click again on the one you want in the right hand box and then click on insert and providing that your cursur in the document you were writing is in the right place the letter together with the mark you want will appear.

It's slow - but it gets there

Hope this helps

I can understand the Cardinal completely.
We are a Catholic Church NOT an ethnic one.
And there does tend to be inclinations to divisions and it is his duty to speak out against this. I dont think he was saying that Polish people did not have the right to pastoral care.
Stephanos I

Lest we have complaints about untranslated posts, I'll provide an English translation of Fr Serge's French: "The more things change, the more they stay the same!"

Fr David Straut

well for what it's worth

I think that the Church's job is not primarily to preserve any particular language or culture - but rather to preach the Gospel in whatever language the people happened to use.

of course, in this case, I (not that I am anybody esp. not the Latin primate of England & Wales), I am thinking that the UK Church is not there to protect the English language or culture, but to preach the Gospel in the language of the people, a significant number of whom, apparently, are polish speakers.

Herb.

btw - are there any Welsh language Latin Catholic parishes under the Archbishop's pallium?

Hmmmm - now there is a thought Welsh speaking Latin Catholics.

I suppose it's possible - the Welsh do use their language a lot - but - Wales is mainly [ I think ] Protestant most of the great welsh male voice choirs come from the valleys - mining areas and these were very much the "Chapel going communities "

There are of course Scots Gaelic speaking parishes in the Diocese of Argyll and the Isles

I agree Father, the church transcends all culture--BUT it takes at least one generation for a sub-culture to become integrated into their new country and it's language. They need Polish language ministry AND want it. If they're not getting fed at English Masses, what is the problem? I don't think that we need another PNCC-like schism. If there are so many Poles immigrating to England, it's not their fault if they don't want to attend English language services they cannot understand. I see many RC parishes around here that have Spanish "sub-parishes" and no one seems to be saying anything like this to them. Where is pastoral sensitivity?

Here's a link to another blog speaking to this:

http://thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/2007/12/cardinal-cormac-murphy-oconnor.html

You would think that with the number of English people in the pews in Catholic churches in the U.K., His Eminence would be incredibly grateful to the Poles for revitalizing his dying church. Instead his xenophobic comments serve only to cause grave scandal to many of the faithful Poles. One woman said she felt "spritiually raped" by his despicable commentary.

I, for one, think it's all part of a bigger agenda, one which the liberal English hierarchy has made no attempt to disguise: these foreign priests and faithful are too orthodox, and are in desperate need of brainwashing. To quote one English Catholic priest on how the Poles and others teach the True Faith: "that's not how we do things here." It certainly isn't, and the puny numbers speak to that! The hierarchy has actually created classes and seminars to re-orient, if one can call it that, these foreign priests and how they impart the Faith.

You can't make this stuff up! It makes one's stomach turn. One can only find solace in His Eminence's age (75; time for a replacement) and the ever-increasing numbers of orthodox Catholics via immigration in the U.K. Here's to hoping and praying they don't drink the Kool-Aid.

Alexis, continually disheartened by never surprised by much of the hierarchy

Yes, there are Welsh-speaking Catholic communities in Wales (most of them rather small, but they represent hope).

"Catholic" and "ethnic" are not mutually exclusive terms, any more than "Orthodox" and "ethnic" are mutually exclusive terms. The Lord Jesus Christ ordered us to "preach the Gospel to all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

There is no evangelical or ecclesiastical mandate to attempt to force other nations into the Anglo-Yankee Cream of Wheat.


Incidentally, the word pravoslavnyj occurs in the official Slovak translation of the Divine Liturgy in the same places where it occurs in the official Church-Slavonic edition.

Fr. Serge

In my part of the world the county is 10% Spanish speaking. I THINK I know of one Catholic Church that takes liturgy in Spanish... I think. I true tragedy.

And that is where they go, if not the Iglesis de Dios...

So the idea that it is too difficult to have a handful of Polish parishes... Well, Excellency, write to your counter-part in Poland (where one in four European seminarians can be found) and ask for some priests, and set up some parishes. The Anglicans may even have some for sale... They have sold at least two to the Muslims.

The ethnic card is getting played to trump the orthodox card here. Too many of "Those people" with their rosaries and their long lines for confession and their pious practices just doesn't fit in with modern notions of "Today's Brit Catholic"

Could this by why to date NO Anglican ministers who have applied for ordination and incardination in some diocese have been accepted??? I seem to recall reading that Liverpool had manifold applicants. Not ONE was accepted.

This is all a bunch of @#$% - pardon my French.

The only reason a bevy of Anglicans and flock of Poles would scare the hierarchy of a struggling shrinking church is that they don't fit in with their agenda.

May the agendists all convert or retire soon.

This is why we call him Archbishop Ireland ?

Rocco is incorrect in one respect. We Austrians & Germans (I am half) were treated just as poorly as the other groups, except that we have been here longer so no one but the Irish remember.

Bland Irish Catholicism dominates to this day. If we Germans had won the culture war: a.) we would still have Mozart-style music in church, b.) we would still have processions and many other externals of the faith in regular practice, c.) Deutsche Singmesse would not be an interesting historical peculiarity, d.) German would still be spoken and taught in the schools, e.) the Ukrainians would not have been treated so poorly, f.) it would not be uncommon in a Roman Catholic parish to hear people singing in four-part harmony, and the list could go on.

Check out J.P. Dolan's The Immigrant Church: New York's Irish & German Catholics 1815-1865.

You wish to hear Mozart's music in Church? Don't blame the Irish for the Cream of Wheat, come to Ireland - at the Pro-Cathedral here in Dublin the Coronation Mass was done for Midnight at Christmas and again Christmas morning.

Fr. Serge

I love to hear Mozart in church. And, apparently, so does the Holy Father.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/ukcorrespondents/holysmoke/sep07/worrying-times-for-ageing-trendies.htm

I don't blame the Irish, just the Irish-Americans. Ever read Thomas Day's Why Catholics Can't Sing?

I shudder to think what Catholicism would be like in America, not to mention Canada, Australia and the UK without the Irish influence. Never heard anything about the Irish not liking religious processions. Some of the biggest ones we had in Chicago were in Irish parishes.

As for the Poles in England, it's all a result of the crazy European Union. Maybe the English are moving to Poland.

The St. Patrick Day Parades are very Irish.

Ever see a St. Patrick's Day Procession i.e. with a statue, acolytes carrying the candles and cross, and a priest in vestments, and hymns being sung?

Father, I don't understand that slang "The Cream of Wheat"

"The Cream of Wheat" = "Bland" or...?

Then again, I grew up on cream of wheat, and anyone taking credit for it is alright by me! Matter of fact, it is 22 degrees and snowing here... a hot bowl sounds mighty tastey just now.

The now deceased German pastor (38 years) of the RC church where I work used to say, "the Irish ruined the church." I never really understood what he meant by that until we had an Irish assistant pastor. Irish spirituality can apparently have a dark side. We heard sermon after sermon about flesh being ripped from bodies roasting in hell, and arms being pulled off by demons, etc. Now I know all the Irish are not like that, but one who is can surely give the rest a bad name.

SS:

I read Father Serge's post and I think from the context he's making a statement about the current state of evangelization and instruction of the faithful in the English-speaking world. Our Spanish brethren have a better grasp of the Faith as they come into the U.S. And interestingly enough, we have seminarians from Africa with advanced degrees from seminaries abroad who are required to go to a seminary in the U.S. before they are ordained. One man I recently read about even had a degree from the Pontifical Gregorian University and is being asked to go to a seminary in the U.S. before being accepted for ordination here. There was a man from Africa who was resident at our parish during his summers who had already finished his training in Nigeria who was required to go to a seminary here before he would be ordained.

BOB

I was honestly just asking what the expression means.

I had never heard "cream of wheat" in an expression before.

That is a provacative assertion. To indict a whole ethnic group as being "the cause" of a series of problems is rather poor form.

In seminary a student from Slovakia once told me "The Hungarians are an awful problem for us. We hate them."

This grandson of a Hungarian was not terribly impressed.

Besides, certain Irish priests (and at least one Irish Melkite!) demonstrate that such a mass indictment is not well founded.

Honestly, what is cream of wheat -- except a cereal for babies.

I just learned about "baking your noodle" apparently it means "frying one's brain."

Kids keep coming up with unique and not so unique expressions. They are not even in the new Dictionary of Idioms which I purchased from Oxford University Press.

I guess you already know that 'bad' is 'good.'
And 'good' is 'bad.'

But now we have changed the topic.

Archbishop Ireland's parochial way of thinking will live on until the end of time, unfortunately. It is a part of our fallen nature.

Correction!

what is cream of wheat -- except a delicious cereal for babies.

CoW gets such a bad rap. I'll take it any day over grits, which is nothing but gross to me.

Ah well.

Okay, I prefer Cream of Rice made by boiling brown rice and then purifying it in the blender. It is especially good when sick as it settles the stomach.

And now we are really off topic.

Maybe a mod can split the recipes and food talk into the Town Hall.

My apologies.

Cream of Wheat is the name of a hot cereal which I have never liked - because I find that it has no taste (this is obviously subjective; no doubt there are people who like the stuff). I had a great-aunt who used to force it into my digestive tract at every possible opportunity.

Rather illogically, as a slang expression it tends to mean an irremediable and tasteless mush which negates its ingredients rather than celebrating them. There are plenty of things to do with wheat which are delicious (starting with honest fresh-baked bread and sweet butter).

Thomas Day's wonderful book Why Catholics Can't Sing is a magnificent analysis of several aspects of the problem. I read it at least once a year, and I recommend it highly.

Fr. Serge

This is all so funny. So we have people who are 'cream of wheat', people who are 'white bread', and people (as coined in the big fat Greek wedding) who are 'dry toast'. Hmmmm.....it seems like we people are made up of alot of starch, and too many starchy carbohydrates are not good for anyone!

Alice

Wonder how many Catholic Dioceses would exist in America today, not to mention churches,convents, schools, seminaries, hospitals etc, if not for the Irish Catholic presence in this country. Quite frankly, no single ethnic group has played a more significant role.

Interestingly, 100 years ago the Germans and the Irish built different Catholic churches in my city. Even the German Lutherans had their own church. The associate pastor I referenced is one extreme of Irish spirituality. I have also met an Irish priest I would consider a neo-pagan, he's so liberal. I suspect most Irish fall somewhere between the extremes as is the case for most nationalities. But one thing's for sure, the Germans and the Irish did not see the world through the same lens. There was, at least at one time, a genuine culture clash between them.

Good man yourself, Lawrence! Now that the seminaries in Ireland are no longer producing a surplus of priests to staff foreign missions around the world, I wonder what effect this is going to have in years to come.

Brigid (a stranger to 'Cream of wheat' but a friend to Flavahan's oatmeal)

In other words, it bears considering each person as an individual.

Jim Gaffigan has a stand up joke about this... If you see a Latino with a passionate temper it is alrigh to say "Gee, he has a fiery Latin temper!" If you see a non-Latino afflicted with same you say "Gee, that guy is a real Jerk!"

So maybe just maybe when you come accross a particularly jansenist-sounding priest whose last name begins with an "O'" or a "Mc" instead of saying "Gee that guy is really Irish" it might be better to say "What an semi-jansenist!"

I have known far too many Irish priests, religous and laity to be comfortable saying that any one of them could be described "as really Irish" with that meaning anything, save perhaps their predilection for certain foods, a type of beer or whiskey, or a love of Erie. (My best friend's grandmother had to have something with a shamrock, Irish flag, or St. Patrick statue or print in each room of her house. SPD gifts - things with Irish themes - were given to each grandchild on that day. I digress)

I try to take them one at a time... However convienantly folks might fit a charciature or sterotype, they are alawyas more than just that.

A bit touchy today, are we? No offense against the Irish was intended. Besides, I think they outnumber us Austrians anyway. And as for the Germans and Irish seeing the world through different lenses, that was true at one time. I suspect they may be more alike than different today.

Bingo! You nailed it. I've also picked up these vibes from liberal/modernist American RC clergy (I am not speaking of those who are loyal to the Magisterium) vis a vis their opinions of imported priests from Poland, the Phillipines, and elsewhere. These foreign priests are not seen to be a good fit for the "American Church" or "Amchurch". They disrupt the whole neo-modernist "dog and pony show"-what the late Dr. William Marra (Philosophy Professor at Fordham University, and a student of the late Dr. Dietrich von Hildebrand) used to refer to as the team of "Fr. Smile & Sister Heretic".
Dn. Robert

The usual amount of touchy here - I will leave my fans and detractors to debate just how touchy that amount of touchy is.

My point - if overly long and drawn out - is that these generalizations based on the ethnic backgrounds of priests here in America are not terribly useful.

What I find most interesting is that a high degree of cultural homogenization is occurring in many places. Will any of the ethnic groups have distinct and recognizable behaviors in a few more years? This has been going on in the U.S. for some time, but I haven't observed quite as much of it in Europe. Will the EU accelerate it?

Interesting. I picked up on the same thing among some liberal - moderate RC clergy.

-- John

What is also driving some of the older American priests around the bend is the fact that many of the younger priests are rather traditional. Some of the younger priests here have been studying Latin.

Back to the topic - the good Cardinal has outdone himself. First he whined that England must be more accepting of immigrants, then he tells the Polish they must integrate into English Catholicism.

I'm four generations removed from Poland, and yet hearing that garbage ticks me off to no end!

Then again, I'm not surprised. The British Government refused to allow Polish servicemen to march in the parade after VE Day in London. this after Polish pilots battled the Nazis in the skies over London during the Battle of Britain.

Papa Benedetto, it's time for a resignation to be received.

It would be far better for the Latin Church in the UK to "integrate" itself into the Catholicism of the Polish.

Better yet, the US Government should remove the visa requirements and let the Polish who want to emigrate come to the US.

Jezu Ufam Tobie!