www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall New Clarification of the MP for Latin Catholic Bishops!

I am not so sure there is so much a longing for latin in the mass as much as there is a longing for that type of worship. The Serbian Orthodox church here has most of the liturgy in English and it is reverent and does not require any handholding or armwaving, altar girls, nor elderly women in mens clothing serving communion. I think the traditionalists would never have made a fuss if the mass had been made available to them in the style offered in this film from St Clements Anglican Church in Philadelphia.

http://s-clements.org/Resources_HighMass.html

MICHAEL:

I agree with you 100% in what you've posted. I guess I'm reacting to those who think that suddenly they can demand that a TLM be offered as a regular thing. I had an experience with a person who demanded that her funeral be in the TLM form during a Preneed conference. She'd call back regularly and repeat her demand over a period of time. It goet to be a real problem so I called a senior pastor in the diocese and had him meet with this person. He calmly explained that there was probably no one in the diocese who had the required equipment (if you will) to respond to her demands. Black vestments had been discarded by every parish many years ago; the black candlesticks to surround the casket--ditto; the black or purple pall; the liturgical books, ditto; the music, ditto. Then he explained to her that even among the priests who had been trained in that form there was no enthusiasm because they'd probably forgotten most of the rules and required rituals. He told her that she ought to rethink her insistence and stop calling the funeral director because he (me) didn't have any way to fulfill her demands.

I don't know about the seminarians at the North American College, but we haven't had a seminarian sent to Rome from this diocese--until the past few years--for more than a generation. The places our priests have come from haven't had a Latin class in the curriculum according to what they claim.

BOB

In my Archdiocese and in many others, priests (such as FSSP priests) who are already competent in Latin and in celebrating the TLM are holding workshops for priests who wish to learn both of these things. The classes have been filling up so fast that they've had to make waiting lists.

Alexis

I think this is the core of the issue--it's not the Latin, it's the reverence. While there are a small handful who don't think the Mass is valid unless it's in Latin[1], the Tridentine Mass translated to English, or even the new Mass without the Music Mafia and it's inane new Hymn of the Week, the sappy tunes which they insist upon for the Responsorial Psalm, and so forth would go a *long* way to solving the longing.

hawk

[1] Fr. Nils used to express his exasperation with those who were convinced Jesus spoke Latin, asking, "What would he do with it--cuss out Roman soldiers?"

Although I prefer Latin for at least all but the readings, as supported in the Latin Church's tradition, I tend to agree that the "bigger draw" is the reverence, gestures, and words and not so much the language. Although a different language which is now used almost solely in the Church (as opposed to being spoken by an entire people) adds to the "otherness" and "specialness" of the liturgical rites.

However, the fact is that by being faithful to Vatican II, Latin would be much more prevalent than it is today in the Church. As would Gregorian Chant. As it stands, the TLM is not allowed to be celebrated in the vernacular (with some tiny, notable exceptions, of course). However, both the Old and New Rites are normally (which is different than prevalently) celebrated in Latin. The New Mass and other Sacraments can be celebrated in Latin without any sort of special permission from the bishop, etc.

Alexis

Where I attended the Latin ,woe betide you if you were under 70 and not following the Mass in your Missal. We didnt know the Latin but we certainly knew what it meant. On Sundays the readings were always done in English from the pulpit before the sermon so I dont think anyone was deprived of "The Word."
After a few years you could almost assert you knew Latin, at least the parts of the Ordinary.
It was the Holy Sacrifice of The Mass Offered for the Living and the Dead, not a Julia Childs demonstration for the entertainment of the "assembly."

Hey, I am under 70 and a baby boomer, and I can recite the Latin in my sleep. I have to watch that now.

Once in an oral Spanish exam, I accidentally used codeswitching and I came out with a very creative sentence where I used French, Spanish and Latin. The professor had a good laugh. At least I did not toss in German too.

Instead of saying dice, I said diche.

Com' se dice?

What is reverence during Mass?

Too many people may not know the answer to that question.

Terry

The words in the prayers themselves should convey reverence, faith, and love.

If the words lack reverence, then we pray in vain.

The post-Vatican II church appears to be slowly recognizing this in mandating appropriate changes to the Novus Ordo, but what about her so-called stepchildren, the Byzantine Catholic Churches?

Why was the Novus Ordo created in the first place?

when I was a child, there was a perfectly decent and reverent English translation of the Latin Liturgy of 1962. Why was this not used?

Elizabeth Maria,

Are you referring to the 1965 Missal? That dropped lots of rubrics from the Traditional Mass like the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, the Last Gospel, the use of the maniple (I think, maybe not), etc.

Alexis

Yes, there were several such changes in the 1965 missal. But it certainly was a better translation that what is being used today.
I still have a copy of it.

The clarification will be ignored by many as usual...I've heard opposition from a few priests at mass last year with a majority of the laity present agreeing, "we don't want to go back to those days"...

No further comments by me needed...

james

Not quite. The Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and the maniple are still in the '62. The main changes were: the fixed Last Gospel (previously when two feasts of double class co-incided, the lesser one was commemorated including the Last Gospel being the Gospel of the lesser feast); the removal of the word 'perfidious' in the collect for the conversion of the Jews in the Solemn Collects on Good Friday; the insertion of St. Joseph into the Canon (anaphora); and the suppression of several feasts and octaves. Most of the notable changes (especially the ones for Holy Week) came in 1955.

What Elizabeth Maria is probably thinking of are the 'transitional' liturgies of the 1960s--most likely the 1965 Missal.

As for the Latin Rite in the vernacular I can only think of two instances: Dalmatia (which had an indult to have the Latin Rite in Church Slavonic) and China (which had an indult to have the Latin Rite in the various Chinese dialects, though the Jesuits never took advantage of this much to the consternation of a few popes who felt that they weren't doing a good job of evangelization.)

Byzantophile,

I said 1965!! LOL.

Interestingly, the Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest has permission to observe the TLM as it was before the 1955 changes, except they use only 7 lessons in the Saturday Vigil instead of the usual pre-1955 12 lessons. Other than that, they celebrate the pre-1955 Holy Week schedule, except possibly the timing of the Saturday Vigil. Don't know for certain about that.

In fact, even in communities centered technically around the 1962 Missal, like the FSSP and others of that ilk, adherence to previous custom still prevails in, really, most places. For example, almost every FSSP Mass I've ever heard of has a Second Confiteor. And every one I've ever seen still has the servers, acolytes, deacon, and subdeacon kissing the object used (be it thurible, book, candle) as well as the priest's hand. I'm pretty sure that in the '62 rubrics, kissing the priest's hand isn't mentioned as a necessity, but it still seems it is always done.

Alexis