www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West St. Augustine against Deaf

I don't think he was evil evil ... but rather was mistaken in that view. That was a popular view at his time. I think we have to weight such statements against all other statements made by him. Nor should we toss out his comparison with sanctification growing in us as 'the City of God' due to some mistaken beliefs he held.

No saint is error free. No apostle was error free. No one (excepting Christ we are told to believe) was/is error free. No father of the church was error free.

And certainly not all teachings of the church are error free. That Christ can lead us in all truth - does not mean the church can lead us in all truth - else - the church (Western at least) would still be teaching that the world is flat (as it had taught once) and the sun orbits around the earth in a perfect circle - which teaching it once held and imprisoned people for believing otherwise.

If we hold Augustine to an error free criteria ... we should do the same for the entire church through out history - and if we did that we must toss out the entire church.

Just like the doctrine of Infallibility for Peter and the church - if they were infallible - then they have infallibly contradicted themselves over the centuries. What is infallible yesterday may be infallibly reversed tomorrow. But I do not toss out the entire RC church for that mistake. Keep in mind that at times in the church it was perfectly acceptable - and even a duty - to kill pagans.

And so Augustine should be remembered for the progress he did make against the backdrop of his time.

We all know that only Polish people were placed into the world as signs of sin


Your Polish friend
-ray

Shane,

I think your reactions here are way over the top. Any sickness or physical disability is a sign of our fallen world. For instance, I am a diabetic. I have a child with autism. I have a friend with Down Syndrome. I had a dear friend who passed a few years ago with cerebral palsy. Another friend's wife has MS.

And I have a cousin who is deaf.

All of these ailments that we have are a sign of our broken world that is in need of healing. All of it is a fruit of sin. It appears from the google reference that Augustine's concern was that the deaf could not hear the Gospel, which could be a hinderance to them accepting it. Considering no technological interventions were around at that time, the notion that it could be a hinderance is a fair concern.

I think before you "unaxios" a great saint and rail against other Christians and call us "audists", you need to consider that it is difficult for anyone to appreciate another person's struggle or disability. Rather than rail "against the ecclesiatical machine", why not try to help educate others - and have a little compassion for our ignorance?

For instance, what resources exist for churches to minister to our deaf brothers and sisters such as yourself? If someone wanted to start an outreach to the deaf community what would be the best approach? Our Byzantine faith is very visual, so I can imagine that aspects of it would appeal to those who have varying levels of hearing impairment.

I look forward to hearing about any constructive ideas you have towards this end.

God bless,

Gordo

Excellent post, Gordon.

In Christ,
Alice

I have a dear friend who is deaf. He was Protestant all his life but was received into the Catholic Church this past Easter. He cannot hear the sermon/homily, the singing, the words of the Priest, the responses...nothing. Nevertheless, the emotional/spiritual transformation effected in him since his conversion is nothing short of amazing. He was a sad, defeated person. Not to say bitter or resentful, but with some self pity. However, since his entrance into the RCC he has become vibrant joyful person...full of the neophytes zeal...it really is a wonderful thing to see. He has access to the library of a major university here in the south, which is only 2 blocks from his home, so he goes there every day (execept Sunday, when it is closed) and reads what Catholic materials are available. Apparently there are quite a few because he has been reading some very good books on diverse topics.

Gordo, concerning your question about ministries for the deaf: in consideration of my friend I came up with the idea of a sermon book based on the icons or stained glass windows in ones Church. This would obviously have to be published at a parish level but since the deaf population in any parish is usually just a few, it should not be too expensive...especially with the instant printing available over the internet now a days. How it would work would be like this: Every entry would have a service drawn out be it mass or DL, vespers, matins or what have you. Perhaps a section of services printed in the front of the booklet that followed the liturgical pattern of the mass or divine liturgy so everyone (deaf and hearing) are on the same page as far as posture, standing, sitting, or whatever are concerned. Clearly it would take SOME work by the deaf worshiper to coordinate his movements with everyone elses...but I think it would mostly be a matter of timing...which the deaf tend to excel at. At the time of the sermon/homily, either a particular "sermon" would be pre-assigned for the liturgical date, or he would have the option of choosing for himself what he wanted to read on that day. The sermons would NOT be morality stories. Ideally they would focus on the symbolism of the chosen icon/stained glass section and THOROUGHLY explain what the image is telling us...including any alternate (but orthodox) interpretations. And then make spiritual applications. The book would need to explain where in the church the icon is located using a diagram if necessary and, depending on the resources of the parish a black and white drawing or photograph of the icon printed in the book. Assuming the liturgical content of this book is taken from approved liturgical texts, it could function as a replacement for the missal or divine service book.

What gave me this idea was attending Christ the King in Atlanta with my deaf friend. CTK is not an overly impressive cathedral as far as cathedrals go...nevertheless it has an incredible array of stained glass windows...the spiritual wealth of which are nearly impossible to tap because they are up so high. They must reach 50'. I thought if someone could take pictures of each section of those windows and put them in a book as I described above...the deaf would have an enormous spiritual resource that would enable them to participate in worship along side their hearing brethren with real spiritual profit...all while using the already available resources in the building.

What think ye?


Jason

What a great idea Jason. What a beautiful book that would make for all--not only those who are deaf.

Alice

Alice, I know! I would LOVE to have a book like this! LOL Maybe I'm guilty of coming up with the idea as much for my own sake as that of my friend.

Jason

There are deaf services at Blessed John XXIII Center on Morganford Road in St. Louis. We shared a Chapel with their organization up until recently, when we moved to a different part of the building.

Dave

Agreed!

If a specific book is written for ministry to the hearing impaired, it could be called "For Those Who Have Ears to Hear: Christian Ministry of and to the Hearing Impaired"

(The "of and to" is deliberate. It says, "Yes, the Church can minister to you...here's how you can minister to us as well!")

Just a thought...

Gordo

Gordo,

I am fully aware of Deaf services in the RCC, but that is mainly due to the Vatican II. Vatican II have opened the doors to many Deaf ministries. However, being Deaf (notice capital "D"), I have experience myself with priests telling us that we cannot have interpreters in the church or if we wanted one, we'd have to go to a secluded area or the back of the church...as if we are lepers or something.

I also was very involved with Deaf Catholic group all over the country and I have met many many hundreds of Deaf Catholics all over the country telling me horror stories they've experienced in the Catholic Church. Plus I know a nun who worked with the Deaf ministry for over 50 years have fought and fought and fought for many years for Deaf rights in the Catholic Church. She even bullheaded with priests, bishops, cardinals, etc. She was persistent..but finally in most areas she prevailed. But she says there is a loooooooooooong way to go even in 2008!

Also...WHY did it take the Catholic Church 1,977 years for a Deaf priest to be ordained! Almost 2,000 years!!! That alone is a testament of how strongly AUDIST the Catholic Church really is. That priest's name is Fr. Thomas Coughlin. After that there were more and more Deaf men becoming priests. FINALLY!!!

SHAME on the Church for being such an audist! I know that G-d would not approve of that!

NOW, WHEN will the Catholic Church RECANT errors that St. Augustine made or any other "imperfect" saints???

Since the Church recanted errors about Galieo, then why not start recanting MANY countless of errors??? Why not start with St. Augustine???

Instead of defending him, admitting he's wrong and all that, WHY NOT DEMAND the recanting of his errors??? Why can't you people even think of that? Or why can't you all support that idea???

That will pave the way to healing in the Church and open many doors to many people who need G-d. If the Church continues to live in a lie, then there will be no healing and there will be plenty of guilty baggage. It seems like everyone wants to avoid that as if there's no problem. I'm sorry to say that IT IS A BIG PROBLEM!!!

As long as audism continues to exist within hidden cracks of theology and philosophy, the Church will always remain an AUDIST! And I WILL NOT STAND FOR IT!

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

PS, my anger is NOT way over the top! How dare you say that? 2,000 years of hatred and audism in the Church...ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! It's no wonder why so many Deaf people are soooo angry these days...angry with the world...angry with the hearing people who constantly oppress them into nothingness...angry with hearing supremacy. NOW WHO is waaaaay over the top? HEARIES!~

Shane,

A very sad history indeed. But we cannot hold the Church or Church Fathers to modern standards of conduct. I'm glad to hear that Vatican II has helped to change the treatment of members of the Deaf Community.

I still hope that you can contribute something constructive to this conversation. So far, I stand by my assessment of your responses as being "over the top", especially with childish name calling. All of us have our struggles - and yes, some of those struggles are even capitalized.

God bless,

Gordo

Just to clarify, by that I mean the ancient Church, not the Church today.

His Freudian slip was showing

(just a joke)

-ray

SPDundas,

That's one of the funniest comments I have ever seen! lol!

But understandable so. I have no experience at being deaf .. but .. I can image how much .. is not 'for' them.

I am curious Shane .. Jason had an idea which seems good .. what would you suggest the church do? If you were in charge .. how would you do things different?

Of course ... I myself do not watch much TV and I seldom play the radio .. and I like working alone at work .. and I have no ability to do small talk. I like my peace. I think a case could be made that those who can hear are actually the disabled ones because by it we fill our heads with so much nonsense.

I had to laugh out loud at 'hearing supremacy' and 'HEARIES!" Made me think of the time when my boss grumbled because we had to out in handicapped stuff into rest rooms etc. He said "All these handicapped people are taking over the world They are banding together to force these changes onto the rest of us. Danm them."

Shane ... we can't demand that the church recant there errors .. because the church doesn't make any errors - and the list would be too long



-ray

Hello Ray...

To be honest...if the Church starts coming clean...then more people will have more respect for the Church.

The Church needs to come clean with weak or errorenous doctrines or whatever like things that St. Augustine said about the Deaf and the blind. Need to start recanting and say..."Oh, that was a mistake, we learn from it and now we become better." But no...the church continues to put its head in the ground like an ostrich and pretend everything is all Pollyanna wonderful.

Another example about the Church coming clean about the sex abuse...the fact the Church have repetitious pattern of not admitting to mistakes and errors is a sign the Church is filled with sinful pride.

I truly believe more people will start respecting the Church if she admits to mistakes and apologize for it...then just learn a lesson from it.

I believe the fact the Church doesn't do that is actually driving many people away, which isn't what the Church should be allowing.

If the Church admits to a mistake or errorenous doctrines, it does not in any way make the Church "incompetent" for truth. In fact, admitting mistakes is a sign the Church has reached to more fullness of the truth. Ironic, isn't it?

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine