www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Chicken Kiev........... or shouldn't that be Kyiv?

While we welcome Chicken Kiev to the forum, I am amazed that certain Ukrainians (Alexander Roman, Jean-Francois.. ) haven't proof-read the spelling

As the great Russian writer Taras Shevchenko stated, "Whats in a name?"




Alexandr

Taras Shevchenko? Didn't he write that line while he was in exile? I forget did he write that in Russian?

I thought the Ukrainian "Holhol" wrote that?

U

Get it right, Ung! The author's name is Mykola Hihil.

D

Although Taras Shevchenko wrote in what would be cosidered modern Ukrainian and Russian, compelling is the question of why the word "Rosiia" ("Russia" in English) is used only once in Shevchenko's poetry, namely in the poem "Neofity" where he draws an ironic parallel between Nero's violence ridden Rome and the subsequent empire of Russia ("Rosii toidi i na sviti nebulo").

Although a citizen of the Russian Empire, Shevchenko did not once use the word "rosiianyn," ("Russian" in English) but used the word "Moskovshchyna" ("Muskovy" in English) and the ethnonym "moskal" ("Muskovite" in English)in numerous variants. Is it because Shevchenko consciously and as a matter of principle rejected this (Russian) political-imperial creation with its implied effusiveness and oppression of people. The ethnonym "tsari" appears in various forms and meanings in Shevchenko's poetry: "fel'dfebel'-tsar," "tsar-prorok," "tsar-vladyka," "batiushka-tsar," "matushka-tsarytsia," "dyvo-tsarytsia" (about Catherine II) and "tsariata" in the context of "Chy bude sud! Chy bude kara! Tsariam, tsariatam na zemli? Chy bude pravda mizh liud'my?"

Finally, the words "Ukraina" and "ukrains'kyi" are used in various forms 269 times, but the lexeme "ukrainets'" is absent in Shevchenko writings.

In summary, Taras Shevchenko's poems and other literary works reject the term 'Russia' and 'Russian' and instead he used the proper and traditional Ukrainian (Rusyn) words Muskovy and Moskali / Moskals.

I.F.

Dear Tovaryshi,

"Chicken Kiev" is fine and the fact is that even Ukrainian institutes, like the Sheptytsky Institute in Ottawa, officially use "Kiev" (undoubtedly because of their love for Slavonic!).

I can't believe people get upset over "Kyiv/Kiev."

Taras Shevchenko did indeed write in Russian since Russian books sold very well.

The Ukrainian writer Panteleimon Kulish was Shevchenko's guide to modern Ukrainian. However, Kulish also held that the Russian language is not foreign to Ukrainians since Ukrainian scholars developed it and injected the principles of Ukrainian grammar into modern Russian.

And as for Chtets' comment above, the Russian for Hohol would be "Gogol" that obviously served to inspire "Google."

And as for I.F.'s reference to "Muscovy" above, he forgot to add St Peter Mohyla's favourite adjective "Barbaric Muscovy."

Alek

As far as I'm concerned it could be 'Chicken Kiev' or 'Chicken Kyiv'. What's important to me is that the meal comes as a frozen dinner and can microwaved in less than 5 minutes.

My sister in-law's maiden name is Kulish and her father told me on more than one occassion that he thought about naming their son Panteleimon in honor of the famous Ukrainian writer. Unfortunately, the Ukrainian name Panteleimon is too close to the French word 'Pantalon' which means pants in English. Of course the Ukrainians in Paris would have called him 'Schtany Kulish'.

I.F.

Dear JF,

Good point!

It is like the Ukrainian in Paris who went into a shop to buy bread.

Since he didn't speak French, he tried every hand signal he knew to try and tell the server what he wanted to buy, but to no avail.

In terrible frustration, he blurted out, "Scho za bida taka, do dupy . . ."

"Ah," smiled the French server, "Du pain!"

And he reached for the bread, to the total mystification of his Ukrainian customer . . .

Alex

Here you can't get it frozen, at least we have a whole section dedicated to the frozen pierogi.

I deleted this before I posted it last night...

I'm sorry to inform you all but Chicken Kiev is a French culinary delight.

But I still welcome Chicken Kiev to the Forum and congratulate him/her on the clever moniker.

Thanks for the info. That explains why no one in our house has ever made it. I always thought the dish maybe was an Eastern Ukrainian dish, but am glad to learn the truth.

My source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_Kiev

Chicken Kyiv/Kiev when made properly (and neither frozen nor micro-waved) is quite delicious. Unfortunately, it's very tricky to get the butter inside the chicken correctly.

Fr. Serge

Was not the dish created here in an American restaurant?

Smachnoho!

Ung

There was a French version that is from the 18th century.

The American restaurant version tends to resemble a sho' nuff Southern Fried Chicken.

Fr. Serge

Dear Friends,

Chicken Kiev was thus called because of the interface of France with Russia.

When Paris was invaded by the Russians after the defeat of Napoleon, Russian soldiers (culture vultures that they are! ),
would go to French restaurants and beat on the tables crying, "Bistro! Bistro!" (meaning "Quickly!")

And now you know the rest of the story . . .

And French "croissants" or crescents were developed as a way of symbolically putting down the Muslims. But if you "are what you eat" then Christians shouldn't go overboard on croissants . . .

This followed soon after the Battle of Vienna and the Christian forces were led by one Kulchitsky, a Ukrainian kozak who was an expert in cannon warfare.

This man was from the same Kulchitsky family that gave the Orthodox Church its great missionary, St Innocent Kulchitsky, Bishop of Irkutsk in Siberia . . .

Alex

About 25 years ago, Prof. Goy of New York introduced us to the 300 year old Kulchitsky Coffee House in Vienna. The Ukrainian Kozak leader after defending Vienna from the Muslim Turks became a businessman in the Austrian capital.

I.F.

Here is more about Kulchitsky:


HOW KULCHITSKY, A UKRAINIAN, SAVED VIENNA FROM DESTRUCTION IN 1683



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September the 12th of this year marked the anniversary of one of the greatest events in the entire history of Europe, and that is - the repulse of a vast Turkish horde before the very walls of Vienna.

The whole civilized world knows how, in 1683, a combined Austrian and Polish Army of 50,000 men, under the leadership of the Duke of Lorraine and Jan Sobieski, a Polish king, defeated a huge horde of Turks consisting of over 200,000 men under the leadership of Kara Mustapha, before the very walls of Vienna, and thus saved the Western Christian Europe from the menace of the Mohammedans.

And yet, but a small portion of this world knows that the decisive role in this great battle was played not by the Austrians nor by the Poles, but by those specialists in Turkish and Tartar warfare - the Ukrainian Cossacks.

The reason for this lack of knowledge of the Ukrainian participation in this battle, as well as in other important events, lies in the dense ignorance which pervaded Western Europe regarding the history of Eastern Europe, which ignorance was reflected in the writing of chronicles which have served as sources of modern historiography concerning this part of Europe.

Yet, in connection with this battle before Vienna the fact remains clear and is supported by careful research, that when the situation became acute, as the Turkish horde approached closer and closer, a call for aid was sent to the Ukrainian Cossacks - who were well known throughout all of Europe for their special adaptability in fighting the Turks and the Tatars. The Cossacks quickly responded.

A number of Cossacks "polks" (bodies consisting of 1,600 to 4,000 men) soon came to the aid of Vienna, under the leadership of such famous "polkowniks" as Semen Paliy, Iskra, Samush, Abazin, and Hohol. The last named "polkownik" was the ancestor of the later world famous Ukrainian writer Nicholas Gogol whose writings in the Russian language so vividly described the life of the Cossacks.

Acting in conjunction with the beleaguered Viennese, the Cossacks together with the Austrian and Polish troops fell upon the Turks from the outside. The Turks, caught between two fires, after fighting desperately, broke and fled. Yet, their power was not broken and still remained a menace even in retreat.

To destroy this power and menace once and for all, the Cossacks were intrusted with the task. Pursuing the retreating Turks the Cossacks caught up with them at a little town known as Parkany - near Budapest. Here, after some terrible fighting, the Cossacks by force of their bravery and their peculiar Cossack tactics completely shattered the Turkish horde and thus removed forever the menace of an Asiatic invasion of Central and Western Europe.

In connection with the liberation of Vienna an incident took place at that time which is well worth relating.

As previously mentioned, when the Cossacks came to the aid of Vienna the Turkish horde was already around the city. The Cossacks joined forces with the Austrian and Polish troops who were also outside the city, and together they waited for an opportune time to attack. But before such an attack could be made, an understanding as to the time of the attack had to be made between the allied forces and the besieged Viennese. The attack had to be simultaneous from within the city and from without of it to succeed at all.

Some one from the city had to steal through the Turkish encampment, get to the allied forces and notify them when the joint attack was to be made.

Of the few who volunteered to undertake this exceedingly dangerous task, a Ukrainian trader and former Cossack, who at that time happened to be in Vienna, was chosen. His name was George Kulchitsky. He was chosen chiefly because he could easily pass for a Turk since he had previously spent ten years in Turkey, where he ran a coffee house.

Stealing out of the city walls on August 13th, Kulchitsky boldly started to walk through the huge Turkish camp, consisting of over 25,000 tents, singing various Turkish ditties and songs with which he was well acquainted. This impudence nearly proved to be his undoing, for his singing attracted the attention of a high Turkish officer, who, liking Kulchitsky's singing, asked him to step into his tent and entertain him further. After treating him with some coffee, the Turkish officer asked Kulchitsky who he was. Kulchitsky, without losing any of his equanimity replied that he was a Turkish buyer, who had joined the Turkish forces in order to perhaps run across some good business. He convinced the Turk so well that the latter even advised him how to get some business.

In this manner did Kulchitsky, principally because of his coolness and courage in the face of danger and because of his brazen effrontery, manage to reach the Ukrainian Cossacks and their allies, deliver his message, and then return the same way back to Vienna on the 17th of August. The rest is a matter of common knowledge. As a reward for his bravery Kulchitsky was awarded the huge stores of coffee which the Turks in their hurry had left. The Christians did not want it since in those days very few of them drank coffee.

With this coffee Kulchitsky opened up the first coffee house in Europe, which with the passage of time, grew to be very popular with the Viennese, and in Europe as well. Today, this original coffee house of Kulchitsky's still stands on the same spot in Vienna.

Dear JF,

When I was staying at a hotel in London, they had the story of Kulchitsky on the wall of their coffee house. But the story referred to Kulchitsky as an "Armenian."

I wrote the management of the London Tara Hotel (Irish, no less!) and tried to correct the record.

The manager wrote me back to say he most definitely will correct the sign but that they received the information, including the info on Kulchitsky's "Armenian" background from the Austrian Embassy, no less . . .

And after all we did for the Austro-Hungarian empire . . .

Alex

Next somebody is going to tell me Salat Olivier isn't Russian in origin.

Isn't it really Slovak?

It's Polish. I checked.