www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Conversion to Orthodoxy

I thought it did but it is evident no one else did. I am sorry about that. My intentions were not bad.

Fair enough. Start a new thread if you wish and I will participate. We can begin by discussing things such as the fact that Holy Orthodoxy will sometimes permit condom use for exceptional circumstances and only then by counsel of your spiritual father on a case by case basis. This usually inevitably leads to a discussion about statistics regarding the percentages of Catholics who use all types of birth control. Then the discourse will shift to comparisons between NFP and condom use and stats that show your chances of pregnancy are greater with condom use----showing that NFP is a more effective form of birth control.

Then we'll move on to in vitro fertilization.

Joe, it is that sort judgmentalism that I was speaking of. Does it surprise me that the official position of the RCC would comprise of some sort of accountability for leaving it? No, absolutely not. That is to be expected.

I think in either church we have the ideals, we have the boundaries, and we have the realization there is all this grey area which we just accept and deal with. What I have seen is that converts in both directions are not Internet warriors, but normal people who either felt comfortable in one church or the other, or more commonly married in to the other faith and converted in order to create harmony and consistency in their family. Will people be judged for that? There's no telling, but I don't think converting to/from/between Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant churches are in and of themselves necessarily tickets to any destination (if you know what I mean). People in their own conscience, and for their own reasons choose certain paths. I'm not going to sit in judgment. I'm sure people also do go through a moral or theological struggle and feel like they must belong to one church or another, but my guess is they're a minority.

Another belief in my mind is few people do undergo "epiphanies" on moral issues upon conversion, and probably have those beliefs formed in their conscience regardless. That is my observation anyway of people who would never consider converting to anything, i.e. ordinary lay people, so my guess is the few who do convert to something are probably not that radically different. Though some may be.

Maybe you could jump in with some constuctive criticism or insight to help this thread be less sad.

JSMO seems to understand that it is understandable that if Rome believes "X" than it would not be a happy or desirable thing to see people believe "less than X" through implicit or explicit rejection of "X".

While holding the Orthodox in great esteem, Rome, understandably would not wish to see people leave the Catholic Church. Given the ecumenical aspirations and progress that has been achieved (in some circles, even talking civally was difficult to achieve at one point) there has been, for good or ill, a de-emphasis on an apologetic style that is seen as too confrontational. In turn this has lead many Catholics to perhaps assume "Those differences just don't matter anymore."

Not to be a relatavist on the matter, but for myself, I would jeapordize my soul to leave the Catholic Church because I am convinced of the truth of the arguments made as presented to me. To leave would be for me to say "Yea its true, I reject truth". Conversely, someone like Joe, who makes his intent, belifs and good will obvious in his writing, didn't join the Orthodox because he believed the Catholic Church was the true church, but just wanted to be different. For him to have not made that move would have meant he would have had to answer for believing Orthodoxy to be true, and rejecting it.

Now one or both of us may be misinformed. But neither of us will be, one hopes, in a position to stand before the Awesome Judgement Seat and say "Yea, I thought X was true but did Y".

That being said, we could spend a lifetime arguing... More profitable in the end, I suppose, to agree to disagree, and pray for Mercy.

So maybe the Roman teaching would best be summed up by "We got it right, but when ya gotta go, ya gotta go."

Pppe Pius XI, Mortalium Animos:

(#11.) Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.... Let them hear Lactantius crying out: "The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this the house of Faith, this the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned, which will be lost and entirely destroyed, unless their interests are carefully and assiduously kept in mind."

Perhaps the abbot as a Byzantine Catholic cannot identify with the sense of spiritual hunger and despair that leads some Catholics from the Latin rite to Orthodoxy. I can accept that from a Catholic viewpoint I may be seen as having left the fulness of the faith and risked harm by breaking communion with the Pope. It's just difficult for me to look at the depth and richness of the Orthodox spirituality I embraced, to contrast it with the Novus Ordo I left behind and then to conclude that I regressed spiritually.

I'm not sure I understood what you meant by your closing statement 'Now, if only the Orthodox will reciprocate this generous Catholic view of those who leave Rome and swim the Bosphorus....' Are you referring to the debate on how former Catholics are receieved into Orthodoxy?

Brigid

That is a real smoking gun of a quote there, podkarpatski. It bares consideration that some explination or discussion of how one is understood to be a member.

In the final analysis, it must be stated that "God reads our hearts", and that we are judged by God based upon how we react to the lights he gives us. It is the person of Jesus Christ to whom we are to attach ourselves. The burden of proof is on us to try and discern His will for us, and where His truth lies. We are obliged to strive to form our consciences according to His teachings, and those of His one, true, Church. I firmly believe that His Truth, in it's fullness, subsists within the Catholic Church, which I believe is His true Church. But, the Church also teaches that God is all merciful, and that those who, in good will, reach a different conclusion may be saved if they sincerely believe that they have found God's truth, and if, in their hearts, they wish only to do the will of God.

In Christ,
Dn. Robert

These teachings assume the individual has full mental/intellectual freedom, and sufficient knowledge to make a proper judgement. If leaving the True Church is, objectively speaking, matter for Mortal Sin (and it is), then the conditions for Mortal Sin would apply, namely, there must be (1.) serious matter, (2.) sufficient reflection, and (3.) full consent of the will.

In Christ,
Dn. Robert

Yes. In the end, God reads our hearts. I suppose I would be the inverse of your situation. I have been Roman Catholic and Byzantine Catholic--now as a member of the Holy Orthodox Church, through much prayer and discernment, I believe I have come home to the one, true, holy, catholic and apostolic church--the Orthodox Church. I believe She contains the fulness of truth. However, I must not judge my brethren for the choices they have made during this pilgrimage on earth. Our ways are not God's ways.

Recluse, well said.

Joe

I second that emotion.

I agree.

Through the catechesis received during my catechumenate in the Holy Orthodox Church, I was able to repent of sins that held me captive and my marriage was renewed. Through the cycles of the Holy Church, I now look forward to Great Lent.

When I was a Catholic, I had fallen into prelest without even realizing it. It was only in and through Orthodoxy that I was enlightened and purified in a process that I can only describe as "purgatory on earth."

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

In my conversion I found that I could move forward with my life and focus my attention more directly on Christ. I discovered that in my soul there were many sinful attitudes concealed from me because I was too busy worrying about things I ought not to worry about. Now, thanks to the grace of God I find it much easier to pray consistently and I find that I really don't desire to be engaged in fights and disagreements like I used to be. I still have much to learn but embracing Orthodoxy is the best decision that I've ever made. The second best decision was marrying my wife.

Joe

Amen Brother Joe...you are not alone in that thinking...