www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Conversion to Orthodoxy

Sure, I find internal insecurity projected as judgmental certainty to be sad.

LOL ! Well said, Andrew !

I just got done reading this thread. First, I don't think any denomination of Christianity --Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant-- has a monopoly on or total possession of the truth. Truth is the perfect conscious of what is, in all its infinite totality. Now who but Jesus Christ Himself can lay claim to that? The rest of us are imperfect, finite sinners. If it helps someone to preserve family unity to join a different denomination, ok. If it helps someone get closer to Christ to join a different denomination, ok. Running away from the Truth is a sin; but running to it --wherever a person may find it-- is not.

Just my two cents' worth.

-- John

ANNOUNCEMENT

There will be testing on Judgment Day - a Final Exam before graduation. The questions on the exam will not be revealed before the test.

On practical basis ... the Roman Catechism is now over 800 pages long chuck full of complicated Latin and Greek terminology. Any test on that (to get into heaven) will be difficult and most will get a failing grade. Not many Catholic will pass a test based upon it.

On the other hand ... the Orthodox catechism is actually very short (200 pages) with only Greek terminology. Any test for heaven based upon it - will be comparatively easier. Almost every Orthodox will pass with flying colors!

Now the test is 'blind' we won't know which 'True Church' - until the actual test day.

Bases upon the percentages ... (if the True Church is Roman Catholic and most Catholics will fail the test ... if the True Church is Orthodox and most Orthodoxy will pass the test) ... your chances to actually get into heaven are better if you convert to Orthodoxy.

Greeks who also took university level Latin are expected to score above average.

When asked "Which is the True Church?" it would be better to mumble (so you are not automatically disqualified) and take the written exam.

(with a note of humor)
-ray

My original question was a good log to start a fire of commentary but aside from the quote from Pope Pius IX I have not seen any 'official' document or statement quoted...probably because there is none. I have a Catholic online bookstore and wrote the Vatican in the fall about whether it was appropriate/allowable to sell Orthodox materials (I did this in case someone objected that I was selling 'schismatic' material). Their reply, received this week was to refer me to the local Bishop...no answer. So, there is no position that they are willing to state. I am sure the same would be said of conversion to Orthodoxy.

As a former Protestant, I would like to caution those who mention Catholicism, Orthodoxy and 'Protestantism' in the same phrase. While Catholicism and Orthodoxy may be two lungs of the Body of Christ, the Protestant sects are are a completely different organism. Individual Protestants are baptized into the Mystical Body of Christ but their religious structures are completely man-made.

THIS JUST LEAKED....

Some of the test questions have been leaked. Apparently the real test will not be on ... which is the True Church!

The following is based upon actual test questions.

"And the king answering shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me. 41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. 46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting."

Apparently the test will be on fidelity to ones own conscience.

Unfortunately .. for most of us this seems to be a much harder test criteria.

-ray

Mortalium Animos retains its authority, but it must be seen in the context of the development of Catholic doctrine regarding other Churches or ecclesial communities. No encyclical is to be read in isolation from the history of doctrine before or after it.

The passage of Mortalium that you cite, when read literally, implies that only Catholics go to heaven. Of course, when read in the context of doctrinal development, we learn that this is not the case, unless you want to be a Feeneyite. The Catholic Church has always made a distinction between those who deliberately and sinfully lead the Church on one hand, and those who are sincerely in "invincible" or "inculpable" ignorance of the truth of Catholicism.

In addition to that, I was also alluding to the venom that some Orthodox reserve for those who leave the Orthodox Church for Catholicism. (Of course, the opposite is also true of some Catholics, and I wish they'd stop!)

When I was a new convert to Orthodoxy, unfortunately, I had a lot of baggage. Yes, I was running away from the Mahony's dancing girls and from the pedophilia problem, and the grass did look greener on the other side in Constantinople.

But it was a rude awakening for me too. I realized how far I had strayed from the Kingdom of God. And so I was called to a deep repentance, far greater than when I was in the Catholic Church. Gradually my eyes were opened to the seriousness of all sins whether known or unknown, deliberate or indeliberate, great or small. Father Thomas Hopko was correct when he wrote that all sins have a cosmic effect. Sin soils and destroys the icon of Christ to which we are called to be. Then with a shock, I realized that the Orthodox really do believe in the Divine Presence in the care they take to guard the chalice and ask forgiveness of all whom they have offended before receiving Christ in Holy Communion.

So, before I could receive Holy Communion in the Holy Orthodox Church, I had to return to my Catholic parish and beg pardon of my priest and let go of the baggage. I was free at last.

For me, sure, there were things in the Western Church that I wanted to leave behind. There are also things in the Eastern Church (including Orthodoxy) that I wished were not there: phariseeism, parochialism, it's own generous share of scandals, and sometimes anti-semitism, etc. But, I've looked around religions long enough to realize that none is perfect, and the key is how it helps a person become closer to God.

The key question for me during my year of official converting status was asking myself "Why am I doing this?" And the answer in my gut was "I believe in Christ and I believe in this part of the Church." As for my believing in the Eastern Church, for me it boiled down to the Divine Liturgy in its fullness and Theosis.

There are lots of other reasons, intellectual and emotional for my conversion. But, it was those two that kept me going. When I did a gut check, it was the Liturgy and Theosis that kept me going. They still do.

But, that's just me.

-- John

Brigid,

Beautifully said.

God bless,

Gordo

For me, John, it was not so much a case of "I believe in Christ and I believe in this part of the Church" as "I believe in Christ and I believe that this is His Church".

Earlier it was quoted

"Let them hear Lactantius crying out: "The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this the house of Faith, this the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation."

My response would be that I did not leave The Catholic Church of which Lactantius speaks!

Brigid

Hi Brigid,

I heard and read other people making that same point, that the Orthodox Church is Christ�s His Church. While I respect it, I do not share it completely.

Yes, I think the Orthodox Church is part of Christ's Church. Yes, I agree with most of what the Orthodox Church officially teaches. But, I think other parts of the Church are also the Church, too.

I think non-Orthodox Christians are the Church too. They confess Christ, too, and try to keep His Gospel. And so, I think that the Catholic Church is part of Christ's Church. I think the Protestant Churches are part of Christ's Church. I think my non-Chalcedonian brothers and sisters are part of Christ's Church. Etc.

Also, I think a lot of non-Christians are part of Christ�s Church. I think there are lots of people who are not officially Christian or actively Christian or correctly Christian, who are parts of Christ's Church. There are many people who know Jesus Christ, even if they do not know His name. That is for a simple reason. They live their lives for love of neighbor.

On the Day of Judgement (as Christ foretold), all the members of Christ�s Church will say to Jesus Christ: "When? When did we find You hungry and give You something to eat? When did we find You thirsty and give You something to drink? When did we find You a stranger and give You welcome? When did we find You naked and give You something to wear? When did we find You sick and take care of You? When did we find You imprisoned and come to visit You?" And Jesus Christ will say to them, "Whatsoever You did to the least of My brothers, that you did unto Me." (Matthew 25: 31-46) And that, in my little sinner's opinion, is the Church.

-- John

Dear John,

I entered the Orthodox Church on the basis that it was Christ's Church. I didn't enter it on the basis though that this was a triumphalist claim which entitles me to dismiss any and every person who confesses Christ outside the visible communion of the Church as a graceless heretic facing damnation. I wasn't, however, taught a branch theory of the Church.

To return to the topic here, we have seen a huge change in the language and attitude of the Catholic Church towards the Orthodox. We don't hear so much about about dissident easterners or schismatics anymore, at least at official level, but despite the modern talk about sister churches and second lungs, the reality remains that in leaving Catholicism for Orthodoxy, we are still adjudged to have departed from the fulness of the faith and to have imperilled our souls.

Brigid

To actually address this question seriously (not that others have not) ...

The Catholic church in practice has seldom had a non-contradictory policy on this. On one hand it depends upon which century. The policy has changed several times according to current political trends and needs.

On the other hand the mystical Doctors of the Roman Catholic Church have been fairly consistent that salvation depends upon fidelity to one's conscience and Providence and not upon how smart someone is or how intelligent.

Current policy negates recent policy. Just a few decades ago ... if one was not submissive to the Pope of Rome one had no possibility of salvation ans was entirely cut off from the Church. But current policy now recognizes the Orthodox as a true church of Christ but 'wounded' ... which means that any convert to Orthodox remains in the church of Christ but is 'wounded' (??).

The RC catechism says that every man MUST follow the clear dictates of his own conscience as that is where the voice of God speaks to us .. if he does not .. he is condemned. So that would say that anyone who feels the clear call of conscience to become Orthodox MUST follow his conscience or be condemned.

Up to just a few years ago (under John Paul II) Orthodox clergy were allowed to teach certain subjects in Catholic seminaries. Under the current Pope ... Catholic seminaries have been purged of Orthodox academics. Benedict is very much unlike John Paul II. Under John Paul certain Orthodox books having especially to do with Patristics and the early fathers of the church were studied in seminary. I believe that these are now also being purged. So that would indicate ecumenical efforts being rolled back in practice if not in words.

In the past the RC has had a belief in doctrine of the 'righteous gentile' .. meaning that God can sanctify non-church people any time He wants to. This was based upon the gospel fact of the Samaritan woman at the well and the Good Samaritan. However today that doctrine lays on the shelf and is no longer found in the Catechism.

So the RC does have an official policy - but it is contradictory depending upon which body of Catholic teaching one is reading at the time. And that policy has been consistent - but only in the sense that it has consistently been changed depending upon the times.

There is also the fact that Byzantines (in union with Rome) are also ... Eastern Orthodox. As are the Melkites I believe.

So .. you are left to go with your conscience really as any Catholic coming trough the door may hold a different opinion as to the policy of his church.

-ray
Roman Catholic

Let me say that I believe that it is better for an Orthodox to become Catholic, or a Catholic to become Orthodox, if in doing so, he is growing closer to Christ and striving to live a holy life. I could never say that the one leaving Orthodoxy for Catholicism was endangering his soul because I am not God. I am not the judge of souls. I imagine it to be the case that a person who was only nominally Orthodox, or whose heart wasn't in it, would be helping his soul if by becoming Catholic, he was rekindling his faith in Christ and striving to be a better Christian.

Joe