www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Help with Saint Joseph Icon

I would like to read input about the following depictions of Saint Joseph. In your opinions, which would qualify as an icon, if any? I'm especially interested in the older ones.

Oh yea, does anyone have a possible dating for that Coptic icon of Saint Joseph and Jesus? By the way, thank you to the person that showed me the Coptic rendering; I did see it previously, but your image is a bigger one that I possess.

To the apparent Padres that responded to me, thank you for your sharing on this board and, of course, to everyone else, thank you for your input, as it has been helpful in my quest of Saint Joseph icons and artwork.

At any rate, please, go to the following...

http://www.osjoseph.org/stjoseph/art/list.php?Subject=St.%20Joseph&

In turn, Alexander you really seem to be privately shoring up the standards of what can be seen as canonical based on your interpretation here.

Maybe the two of you could share with us a website or easy guidelines that show what is real?

Sorry, there is no website of easy guidelines . The issue of canonical iconography is too important and of too great a theological proclamation is be reduced to quick & easy. Iconography is not just art or personal interpretation; iconography conveys our Eastern Orthodox theology. To gain an insight in the theology of iconography as well as the meaning of canonical icons, I advise you to consult the following works starting (as always) with Ouspensky's The Meaning of Icons. :

Iconography Manuals:
An Icon Painters Notebook: The Bolshakoy Edition. An Anthology of Source Materials. Trans. and Ed. Gregory Melnick. Torrance, CA: Oakwood Publications: 1999.

The �Painter�s Manual� of Dionysius of Fourna. London: Sagittaurius Press, 1978.

Ouspensky, Leonid. & Vladimir Lossky. The Meaning of Icons. Rev. Ed. Crestwood, NY: St. Vladimir�s Seminary Press, 1982.

Ouspensky, Leonid. Theology of the Icon. Vol. 1., Crestwood, NY: St. Vladimir�s Seminary Press, 1978.

And also this book already discussed on another post here on this forum:

Quick and easy isn't the goal.

Can you explain how you came to determine these folks as being the definitive experts and authorities for iconography? Was it their convincing arguments? In turn, can they be backed up by canonical authorities?

I do appreciate your enthusiastic opinion on these matters.

Simple,

Maybe instead of calling into question the sources that were given, maybe you can supply references or sources that refute them, since you seem to be implying you are an expert on the subject of iconography here? Or is it that you have none to base you posts of doubt on?

Let's see Miller listed 4 sources to your none...

Hmmm, could it be you have none?

Hmmm, what argument am I making that I need to have sources for, Secret?

He listed four sources ("to my none") and I am now asking why he values those sources as having a sort of magisterial authority.

Is that fair? I think it is, do you?

Some time ago I pozited that at least a significant minority of Greek Catholics accepted Roman claims to the papacy, and Miller wanted to know if or when I had personally taken a survey of Eastern Catholics.

So in keeping with Millers advice to me ("Just a word of advice. Make statements you can backup.") I am asking for Miller to back up his reasoning for why these sources he presents are definative or authoritative. Maybe even why he thinks his reading of those sources is acceptable as a measure.



Hardly.

Where your sympathies lay is your business.

My intent in the post, far from demonstrating my own personal expertise (I have absolutely no idea where you formulated that) is to ask what makes those sources either definative or authoritative.

That is fair, isn't it?

I am not the one calling Orthodox iconographers (Conciliar Press & Christ the Saviour Cathedral in Moscow) out as some sort of "pseud0-iconographers" and claiming they are not really Orthodox icons here.

Could it be I have no sources? What sources am I to provide when asking him why his souces should be considered definative???

What sources do I need to have? Please tell me.

Maybe you should have made tht clearer, since that is not what your posts seemed to imply.

I am not sure how to protect myself from the implications you make. The post was what it was - a question about why those sources are definative and authoritative.

Many icons on iconostases of Russian churches of post-18th century origin (the so-called "Imperial style") are very westernized and would not meet these criteria, either, nor would much of the inventory of Sofrino, the MP Patriarchal religious goods store, which are sold daily to the faithful.

Dear Father DIAKone,

Khrystos Khreschayetsia! Vo Yordani!

In the villages, religious art painters would ply a lucrative trade for people's icon-corners and were called, as I believe, "Boho-mazy."

Up here, whenever someone doesn't like an icon, he or she says, "And what Bohomaz painted that?"

Alex

I posted this on the Saint Joseph section, but the conversation kind of carried on without me! By the way, the following web-page is for artwork and/or icons for Saint Joseph, although you can look at other saints and Biblical subjects... feel free to critique them too!

http://www.osjoseph.org/stjoseph/art/list.php?Subject=St.%20Joseph&

God Bless all of you, your families and friends...

In Christ,

Benny Anthony
Kansas City, Missouri

The Oblates of Saint Joseph - a FINE group!

see: http://www.osjoseph.org/osj/patron-unborn.php for images of a statue of Saint Joseph, protector of the unborn. A very tender and moving image.

Honestly, I have to agree with Bl. Margaret of Castillo "Never enough about Saint Joseph!" She wasn't a woman of many words, one biographer notes, but once you got her started on SJ, better get comfortable.

Here is one by the Benedictines of Conception Abbey



http://www.aquinasandmore.com/index...Details/SKU/60658/Category/398/index.htm

pax

james

I wanted to mention something that surprised me, although not about "icons" per se and I must admit that when I started this STRING that I was guilty of using the term icon too loosely. An icon and a piece of Christian art are too different things.

Anyway, what surprised me was in my newly arrived copy of the J.C. Penny's Catalog for Spring 2008. It was a necklace with Saint Joseph, which was sold along with a Saint Christopher's Medal and a few crosses.

Benny,

I did a search and found the "ancient icon" of Saint Joseph:

http://www.shadesoftime.net/acatalog/info_035010141.html

It's not so ancient; the icon is described as a "Melchite" icon from the 18th century.