www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Venerating Converts to Orthodoxy as Saints

Right! It would seem the difference here, though, is the official liturgical veneration of non-Catholics. Private devotion, as Alex stated, is another matter.

Alexis

Alex

This is their entry:

Nicholas, Alexandra and Companions (d. 1918)+
Last Romanov rulers of Russia and martyrs. Tsar Nicholas II(r.1894-1918) and Tsarina Alexandra are considered martyrs for the Russian people and were canonized soon after the Russian Church was established in exile, following the Russian Revolution and the assasination of the Tsar and his family. Joining the Tsar and Tsarina as saints were their children, Alexis, Tatiana, Olga, Marie and the famed Anastasia, along with a large number of monks, nuns, and priests who died because of their direct (or even indirect) associations with the imperial family. The veneration of the Romanov rulers of Russia has been especially heightened in the last decade, given the collapse of the Soviet Union and the lifting of oppression against the Orthodox and Catholic Churches in Russia. Feast day: July 17.

Saint Seraphim is also listed; however, Saint Sergius of Radonezh is not.

Dear Griego,

Excellent!

There is hope for us all!

In fact, Tsar St Nicholas was such a benevolent man that when Bl. Leonid Fyodorov, the Russian Catholic New Martyr (who suffered for 14 long years in the Solovki!) heard of his son, St Alexis and his condition, he wrote on behalf of his community the "Russian Orthodox Old Believer Community in union with Rome" to tell the Tsar that they were all praying for him.

The Tsar sent him a hand-written note back saying, "I wish to thank the Russian Orthodox Old Believer Community in union with Rome for your prayers!" (He probably thought that tile was rather quaint . . .).

Whenever Bl. Leonid and his group were about to be ejected from premises where they worshipped by the Russian police, he would pull out that letter to show them - at which point the police saluted and left them alone.

Until there was an abrupt change of regime . . . one that saw them wearing lots of red stars . . .

Alex

I am confused about Palamas. He was anti-Roman and is venerated in the East. Can some one help me out with that? I think my deacon mentioned that we will be venerating Palamas next Sunday.

Dear East and West,

Palamas was anti-Roman?

Quick, friend, without delay, contact someone in Rome to let them know so that he can be removed from the saints on Catholic Online and elsewhere before the Second Sunday of Lent comes around!

That would be scandalous if that were allowed!

Seriously though, when and where was St Gregory Palamas anti-Roman?

There was a time when RC's, unadvisedly, considered Hesychasm to be a form of Quietism (See Fr. Holweck's Dictionary of Saints).

But now that RC's no longer believe that, there is no problem.

Also, Pope John Paul the Great (as the Administrator calls him - good for him!), read Palamas widely.

Patriarch Joseph the Hieroconfessor had Palamas restored to the UGCC calendar as well.

Patriarch Joseph spent 18 years in Siberia because he refused to be anti-Roman. The Soviets broke his right hand when they caught him writing letters to his flock and they tied him to the ground and had an entire Siberian unit walk over him - at which time two of his ribs were severely broken and weren't repaired until he got out of Siberia thanks to Pope John XXIII and President John Kennedy.

Patriarch Joseph, I believe, would have known if Palamas was anti-Roman.

What do you know that Patriarch Joseph didn't?

Alex

Alex,

thanks for this- people on another forum I post on have been attacking Palamas on our calendar and it does not matter what you tell them, they just can't accept him as a Saint- of course, I tell them they do not have to do so, but he is a Catholic Saint for us!

blessings,

Lance


A Byzantine Christian in a Postmodern World [byzantinechristian.blogspot.com]

Dear Lance,

Yes, one often wonders about where they get their info from on this.

The fact that Palamas opposed Barlaam of Calabria does not make him "anti-Roman" - Calabria is a long way from Rome anyway!

Again, one may Google St Gregory Palamas and find him on Catholic Saints sites.

Rome officially recognized him as a Saint in 1973 - there was even a bit of a ceremony involved.

A Basilian priest with a degree from Rome asked me, last year, what more he could do for the parish celebration of the Second Sunday of Lent.

I told him, only half tongue in cheek to see what he would say, to write up a bio on St Gregory Palamas and put it in the Church Bulletin!

And he did . . . Unfortunately, most people in the parish thought of him as some obscure Saint that was undoubtedly canonized by Rome . . .

Although Patriarch Joseph restored him to our Calendar, I know many parishes in E. Canada don't list them (unless you are one of those really "Orthodox in communion with Rome" parishes ).

As for "top-down" legislation, it would never work in our Church. "Co popyk, to typyk" or "every priest has his own typicon/way of doing things" and the Church hierarchy be . . . well, you know!

Again, if anyone here has any firsthand knowledge or quotes by St Gregory Palamas that would indicate that he was Anti-Roman - please come forward or forever (and ever) hold your peace!

And then join us all in singing (with the Administrator and his beautiful cantorial voice leading):

Rejoice, O Holy Saint Gregory of Thessalonika, Preacher of Grace!

Alex

All I know is that Gregory Palamas opposed communion with the Catholic Church. Sounds like a grave sin to me.

Dear East and West,

St Gregory Palamas never opposed communion with the Catholic Church. He was Orthodox and an Orthodox Saint, to be sure.

He would have embraced full union with Rome if that is what his Patriarch and Church would have decided upon. It wasn't his business to make decisions for his Church.

He never said anything critical of Rome, he minded his own business.

All the criticisms he had for Barlaam of Calabria and his kind were justified from the RC point of view as St Gregory Palamas attacked the heresy of nominalism - which both RC and Eastern Orthodoxy anathematize.

St Gregory preached the constant saying of the Jesus Prayer and the theology underlining the experience of God through that spiritual discipline.

While on Athos, he spend his weeks praying the Jesus Prayer unceasingly and then went to his monastery on weekends to receive Holy Communion. He was a miracle-worker in life and after death.

RC criticism of him was of the Hesychast movement in general - he just happened to be caught in the crossfire.

But no longer.

The RC Church no longer sees the Jesus Prayer spirituality as a "quietist heresy."

Many RC's practice it today, in connection with a full Christian life of the reception of the sacraments and participation in the life of the Church.

Even my Benedictine Archabbey makes 100-strand Jesus Prayer beads.

I've seen his icon among the images of my RC friends (and, no, not because I insisted they have him! ).

Again, if even one shred of evidence could be produced that St Gregory was anti-Roman or opposed Rome (beyond what his Church did, then again he cannot be guilty of obeying his Church), then we could take the anti-Roman charge seriously.

Many RC's for example read about St Paissy Velichkovsky in the "Way of a Pilgrim" and honour him highly for his work on the Jesus Prayer (as they should).

St Paissy was, in fact, quite anti-Roman and likened the Union of Brest to "spider's cobwebs."

But the Catholic encyclopedia, when examining the lives of Orthodox Saints and Teachers, has stated that "they repeated the prejudices of their environment."

None of this applies to St Gregory.

So please come back with evidence to the contrary - until such time, you are forbidden to post on this thread further!

(Sorry, just wanted to see what it would feel like to be a Moderator!)

Alex

I often imagine Ss. Gre. Palamas & Tho. Aquinas sitting on a cloud in heaven (the way heaven is pictured in cartoons) gazing down and having a giggle at all this. When it gets really funny to them, they call over St. Isaac the Syrian to check it out...

I imagine at times they also cry together too.

Maybe but the Theologies of Gregory Palamas and St. Thomas Aquinas are completely incompatible. I am not denying that Palamas was a pious man. Just trying to understand the allowance of man such as Palamas, who rejected Catholic teachings such as the divine simplicity and filioque, to be venerated in the Church.

It is difficult to understand your animosity toward Palamism. You continually say that you do not deny his personal piety, yet you are on record in multiple forums as blasting his theology. It is an obsession with you. It is sad to see this type of attack.

Dear East and West,

Their theologies are different but hardly incompatible. And even if they were, that hardly makes Palamas a heretic.

He was Orthodox and so adhered to Orthodox theology. So do many Eastern Catholics who do not have the Filioque in their Creed - are we anti-Roman too?

St Gregory would often exclaim that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son - is this not what Aquinas allowed as being perfectly legitimate from even the RC Trinitarian point of view? (Dear Todd, please stay out of this for now! )

At the Council of Florence, the Greeks were not to include the Filioque in the Creed but accepted the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father through the Son.

As Fr. John Meyendorff said, if the West had agreed to remove the Filioque (something that was never in the Creed designed to express the common faith of the universal Church), both sides could have agreed to the "Father through the Son" principle and unity could have been achieved. That is from this respected Orthodox theologian.

There are also all kinds of Orthodox Saints canonized after the Schism that are now in the calendars of EC and even RC churches - none of whom made any allowance for the Filioque.

Aquinas was respected by the Orthodox and St Gennadios Scholarios even called him a genius (he too was against a union with Rome that would have seen Eastern theology capitulate to Latin a priori's). The Orthodox borrowed much from Aquinas in the area of moral theology. Some Orthodox even invoked him as "Blessed Thomas" much like "Blessed Augustine."l

The only way your test of faithfulness to (Latin)Catholic doctrine could apply here is if Palamas was an RC and became Orthodox.

Or if he participated in a union council and became particularly vocal in attacking Rome.

None of that applies to him.

(And didn't you see my earlier post about your further participation here without providing evidence to substantiate the "anti-Roman" claim? )

Alex

You are right I do have a problem with his theology. It is a problematic one. BUT, that doesn't mean that I am going to give up seeking answers to this question: Why are we justified in venerating him? I want to know. I attend a Ruthenian parish and next week is his feast and I am conflicted about even going to my own parish this weekend because of it. I have a strong desire in alot of way to move east. But things like the Palamas issue concern me. Perhaps I sound like I am attacking him because of the forceful language I use, but if some one could give me a good reason to change my position on Palamas I would be thrilled.

Dear East and West,

You could begin by reading his Triads published by the Paulist Press and that has an excellent Intro by Fr. John Meyendorff.

His entire theology is THE theology of the Eastern Church, of the Eastern Catholic Church, his teaching on Theosis and Divinization, on the Uncreated Light etc. St Seraphim of Sarov (highly venerated in the West too) is a student of his teachings.

The real question is how can you say that you are attuned to the EC Church and NOT know more about him and NOT venerate him?

If you've gotten on the Eastern Christian train, but want to get off at the stop that says "Thomism," you won't travel far!

Again and again (no pun intended) where is your proof that Palamas was Anti-Roman? Is there such a thing as an "Eastern Thomist?"

And, if so, where did you meet such an individual - may we know his name?

Alex