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Make sure you have your seatbelts fastened. After the enlightening remarks from the Archbishop of Canterbury yesterday, now we have this interview from TIME magazine with the Bishop of Durham. TIME interview with the Bishop of Durham [ time.com] In IC XC, Father Anthony+
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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At the Baptist school I attended, N.T. Wright was an esteemed theologian and his books on Christ were studied in an upper level Christianity class (I didn't take the class, but borrowed the book). I didn't like what I read then, and I don't like this interview too much either.
Terry
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Fr. Anthony,
He is not saying that after death, people do not live in the presence of Christ. He seems, rather, to be pointing out the biblical truth that our destiny is not to exist as an immortal soul in heaven, but rather to be resurrected at the end of the age to enjoy an embodied existence in a new heaven and earth. Don't we pray for those who "lie asleep in the Lord?" And in Revelation, the souls of those slain cry out from under the altar in heaven. They seem to be in an intermediate state and still awaiting the final day of their vindication when they are resurrected. Until then, they rest and wait, though offering their prayers up to God.
Joe
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So what is wrong with what N.T. Wright is saying? Am I missing something?
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In contrast to many Anglicans, here is one who seems to care about what scripture says and means. The following does sound like support for concepts like toll houses and / or Purgatory. Wright: There is Luke 23, where Jesus says to the good thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." But in Luke, we know first of all that Christ himself will not be resurrected for three days, so "paradise" cannot be a resurrection. It has to be an intermediate state....
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This really caught my eye. The Bishop of Durham isn't just any-old flakey Anglican clergyman but probably the most widely respected, and widely read conservative biblical scholar.
I had some minor issues with how what he said could be interpreted, but overall I have to ask, what specifically is the problem? From just my quick reading I'd say his viewpoint is actually quite "Eastern," and very insistent on the necessity -- for instance as we say in the Creed -- that we "look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come."
Dn. Anthony
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I don't like his tone. There seems something lacking in it.
Terry
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I found it impossible to pick up any "tone" in it. It sounds like to me that he is simply trying to correct a popular misconception.
Joe
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The part I question is where the Bishop says that we are not going up to meet Christ, but He is coming down.
However, the Icon of the Ascension is also the Icon of the Second Coming of Christ, when He will come back to earth in the same way He ascended.
So, yes, I would have to agree that the good bishop is decidedly very Eastern in his thinking.
Intermediate state? This definitely exists because in the intermediate state our bodies are laid to rest where we suffer death and decay (unless we are blessed to have an incorruptible body), but the souls of the blessed are in a state where there is no pain, no sorrow, but life everlasting.
Then in Matthew, Christ says that at the Resurrection, we will be joined to our bodies, the dead arising first and then those who are alive will come to meet Christ in the skies where we will be judged: those on the right (the lambs) to their eternal reward in heaven and those on the left (the goats) to eternal damnation.
Nevertheless, it seems like the bishop might be denying the existence of hell more than heaven. Does he?
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I don't like interviews for that reason, they are very limited. The tone referenced the books of his I've read. He has a consistant voice in the interview. The tone, more specifically, in his approach to matters of faith. I'm not sure if 'tone' is the proper word.
It may be his binding of scripture to itself, but I haven't read enough of him recently to have a solid opinion.
Terry
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Thinking on it on the drive home. That I dislike him does not mean I think his judgments on scripture are invalid. But that his judgment is incomplete.
His view of Christ can be quite a relief for one who spends much time reading modern liberal Bible scholarship. Of the two books of his I read, many of his arguments were in reaction to historical questions raised by "Jesus Seminar" academics. He did not approach the question of "who was Jesus" with the cynicism of an atheist or the nihilism of an antitheist.
Terry
Last edited by Terry Bohannon; 02/09/08 12:29 AM.
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I think he makes very good points.
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"Nevertheless, it seems like the bishop might be denying the existence of hell more than heaven. Does he?" I am pretty sure that he opposes what some call the Hellenized understanding of hell. He is well read. It would surprise me if he denied Sheol. He tends to write so as to unravel traditional narratives of interpretation so a reader can approach a contextual understanding of scripture. I don't remember him speaking of the doctrine of hell in a way where he was making an independent claim about its nature. But I have only read two of his books, and neither were on the subject of Hell but on the nature of Christ. The following quote from The Resurrection of the Son of God seems relevant. The formatting his, except for the brackets which I inserted: The prediction of resurrection [in Daniel 12:13] is not an isolated piece of speculation about the ultimate fate of humans, or even Judeans, in general, but a specific promise addressed to a specific situation. Israel's god will reverse the actions of the wicked pagans, and raise the martyrs, and the teachers who kept Israel on course, to a glorious life. Simultaneously, he will raise their persecutors to a new existence: instead of remaining in the decent obscurity of Sheol or 'the dust', they will face perpetual public obloquy. The whole scene, in fact, carries with it elements of the lawcourt, in which YHWH as the righteous judge puts wrongs to right, punishing the wicked and vindicating the righteous. Michael, the angel or 'prince' who is Israel's specific protector, will be YHWH's agent in bringing this judgment to pass (pp. 113-114). That is his strict reading of Daniel, and I think it relates to one of his final arguments in the book: As we have seen, the early Christians usually referred to the resurrection of Jesus as the work of this god [the one true god]. 'He has been raised,' they say; 'God raised Jesus from the dead.' The work of this god was, from very early on, part of the interpretation, the tried of meaning through which they viewed this event. And from the very early on (it is already taken for granted by Paul), the fact that this Jesus had been raised by this god, when mulled over and reflected on in the light of all that Jesus had done and said, and all that Israel's scriptures had said about the redeeming and reconciling action of this god, drew from the early Christians the breathtaking belief that Jesus was 'son of god', the unique 'Son' of this God as opposed to any other. They meant by this not simply that he was Israel's Messiah, though that remained foundational; nor simply that he was the reality of which Caesar and all other such tyrants were the parodies, through that remained a vital implication. They meant it in the sense that he was the personal embodiment and revelation of the one true god. Paul's Christology, and perhaps also that which was expressed in creedal formulae before he was writing the extant letters, indicates that from very early on in the Christian movement this god and this Jesus were being referred to as 'father' and 'son' within contexts that clearly put them together on the 'divine' side of the equation.
The truly remarkable thing about this is that, where we see this happening, the arguments that are being mounted at the time, and even the Old Testament scriptures that are being quoted and expounded, are all of a strongly monotheistic tone (p. 731).
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He tends to write so as to unravel traditional narratives of interpretation so a reader can approach a contextual understanding of scripture. Unfortunately I've not read any of his books (yet). Based on the excerpts in the post, however, I'm getting the impression of that which is orthodox in new and somewhat challenging language and concepts -- so far, no heterodox smoking gun. For those in the Baltimore MD area he will be speaking here [ stmarys.edu] this month, three lectures, free to the public. Dn. Anthony
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