The Soul Children of Chicago, the choir singing in the first link, have been around for a couple decades and have produced some beautiful music - much of it traditional Gospel, but also some from other spiritual traditions. I've heard it said that a lot of their alumni credit Rev. Whitman and involvement with the choir as having led their lives in a different direction than they might have otherwise gone. May God grant them many years.
Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Watch what you ask for, with Protestants being the largest group of concerts to Orthodoxy and the location of many of our antique temples a Gospel Choir may sing the Divine Liturgy, in a-capella English.
Who is credited with your quote: "One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Chill, a simple observation. So are we ready to acknowledge the Evangelical's witness to orthodoxy with their music? If so here is a good one for Passion (Holy) Week.
Here is tit for tat
Protestants fought slavery Orthodoxy didn't fight serfdom. After all one of the trouble spots for human trafficing today is what use to be the USSR.
Who is credited with your quote: "One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
I agree whole heartedly!
Michael,
It is from The Courage To Be Ourselves [melkite.org], the 1972 Christmas Pastoral Message of the beloved Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), of blessed memory, then-Exarch and later first Eparch of Newton of the Melkites. Character count limitations preclude me from crediting him by name.
In context, the fuller version says:
Quote
We have not yet mentioned the principal dangers which threaten our communities and their mission to the Churches: the ghetto mentality and the assimilation process.
In a ghetto life is closed in upon itself, operating only within itself, with its own ethnic and social clich�s. And the Parish lives upon the ethnic character of the community; when that character disappears, the community dies and the parish dies with it.
One day all our ethnic traits - language, folklore, customs - will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, primarily for the service of the immigrant or the ethnically oriented, unless we wish to assure the death of our community. Our Churches are not only for our own people but are also for any of our fellow Americans who are attracted to our traditions which show forth the beauty of the universal Church and the variety of its riches.
He then went on to speak of the second danger - at the opposite end of the continuum - assimilation.
I heartily recommend reading the entire message. It is as meaningful now as it was then.
Many years,
Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Here is a hijacked version of Gospodi Poluj: (Warning, It reminds me of some Roman Catholic Nuns that I used to know.)
How is it "hijacked"? Is someone understood to own it? It can't be appropriated in different ways if someone wants to sing it with their guitar and make a folk song where they pray "Lord Have Mercy?"
The barb about the "Roman Catholic Nuns"... I don't get it. Are you a convert who is angry with a Catholic past?
The only �barb� I see here is the karate slaps to stifle a possible discussion of sharing a range of other�s views on assimilation. There are many perspectives, as singing nuns could be used to give a mental image of the RC folk mass, rather than anti-papist anger. Yes a-cappella arrangements with instrumental accompaniment can be seen as hijacking. Voice being the only musical instrument made by God is seen by many as the only suitable form for temple worship. The combination is religious musical entertainment. Now bring up David in the Psalms. See how it can be stimulating if not oppressed?
How about this for a start of a US perspective on our Greco Catholicism of the Orthodox Faith�s assimilation: In Church Slavonic we have one Liturgical translation, but mutable English ones. Does this lack of uniformity make memorization isolating rather than evangelizing?
Assimilaton. Is there any participant on this forum who, having children, or hoping to have them, does not realize that within a hundred years, and probably a lot sooner, his/her descendants will be totally and thoroughly assimilated to American culture and not give much of a hoot about being Ukrainian, Rusyn, Russian, Greek, Serbian,Arab or whatever? While this may be a sad thing (which is my own view) it seems nonetheless to be inevitable. To tie religion to ethnicity is fatal, for that ethnicity will soon be dead, gone and forgotten. It must be Christ,first, last and always.
The only “barb” I see here is the karate slaps to stifle a possible discussion of sharing a range of other’s views on assimilation. There are many perspectives, as singing nuns could be used to give a mental image of the RC folk mass, rather than anti-papist anger. Yes a-cappella arrangements with instrumental accompaniment can be seen as hijacking. Voice being the only musical instrument made by God is seen by many as the only suitable form for temple worship. The combination is religious musical entertainment. Now bring up David in the Psalms. See how it can be stimulating if not oppressed?
So how do you see a US assimilated Eastern Mysticism? Only in the church with scripted services? Is it not more important to weave it into the domestic church? If the domestic church is important do you not see the perpetuation of the Holy Suppers for Christmas and Theophany vigils, the blessing of Paschal foods or the visitation of Saint Nicholas instead of or in tandem with Santa Clause relevant? If your idea of Christ first is intolerance for individual family values and traditions, church arrogance is a lousy substitute. So how is Christ to be first in an Eastern perspective within a western culture? Why don�t we just join the Methodist Church (no not just any protestant church), look at their Spirituality before you answer.
When I attend a Melkite Church I expect a Middle Eastern perspective, a German one in a Lutheran is not offensive nor a Scottish in a Presbyterian parish. My parish started in 1888 (119 years) and when they express themselves they try to do it in a Western Ukrainian perspective. When the children are studying Pascha the parents welcome them learning how to batique eggs. Before Christmas prosphora bread and hay are passed out for their vegan vigil Holy Supper, if they serve pyrohy dumplings or potato chips is not as important as gathering the clan. Why should the blessing of palms imported from Florida on Palm (Passion) Sunday eradicate pussy willows that grow locally as they did in the old country? Should we greet the bishop with a key instead of bread and salt? Why are �our ways� offensive?
The other side of the coin with the number of Protestant converts through marriage why do we not authorize some of their hymns? They are their way of reinforcing orthodoxy. I was at a friend�s funeral that married an Orthodox girl, book ending the funeral service Wesley hymns were sung a-cappella. The overwhelming majority of non-Orthodox felt at home in what could be a strange environment to them. We need a suggested list of hymns from our side so their side feels at home. Or is this Latinization?
Why do they need to be "authorized"? If the songs are sung prior to beginning the Sacrament and after the Sacramental Services are completed, they do not need to be authorized - they are simply songs, as long as the lyrics are not heretical, offensive, or ridiculous, it is the choice of the two being married.
When I attend a Melkite Church I expect a Middle Eastern perspective, a German one in a Lutheran is not offensive nor a Scottish in a Presbyterian parish. My parish started in 1888 (119 years) and when they express themselves they try to do it in a Western Ukrainian perspective. When the children are studying Pascha the parents welcome them learning how to batique eggs. Before Christmas prosphora bread and hay are passed out for their vegan vigil Holy Supper, if they serve pyrohy dumplings or potato chips is not as important as gathering the clan. Why should the blessing of palms imported from Florida on Palm (Passion) Sunday eradicate pussy willows that grow locally as they did in the old country? Should we greet the bishop with a key instead of bread and salt? Why are “our ways” offensive?
Who said our ways were offensive?
Mychhayl I think you may be wishing to start a new thread - I really can't see how this is related to a clip of a Gospel choir singing "Hospodi pomiluj"...
When I attend a Melkite Church I expect a Middle Eastern perspective, a German one in a Lutheran is not offensive nor a Scottish in a Presbyterian parish. My parish started in 1888 (119 years) and when they express themselves they try to do it in a Western Ukrainian perspective. When the children are studying Pascha the parents welcome them learning how to batique eggs. Before Christmas prosphora bread and hay are passed out for their vegan vigil Holy Supper, if they serve pyrohy dumplings or potato chips is not as important as gathering the clan. Why should the blessing of palms imported from Florida on Palm (Passion) Sunday eradicate pussy willows that grow locally as they did in the old country? Should we greet the bishop with a key instead of bread and salt? Why are �our ways� offensive?
Thank you for your thoughts, but why only at once in a lifetime events? If you won�t mind considering, how about bookending regular scheduled services and include during the distribution of communion? Of course it would have to be an a-cappella sing a long in experience. In tandem would dance be OK during a children�s seasonal activities like a Nativity skit in the church? How about musical accompaniment as it is not a service? Before you answer you may wish to review some of the comments on:
I can understand why UGCC pastors resist varying from standard operating procedures. Unless a chancery gives a suggested list of others songs not heretical, offensive or ridiculous he can be branded as a Latinizer rather than assimilator. Is that still more acceptable than a traditionalist? Rule of thumb would you consider it preferable to be exclusive or inclusive?
Seems to me that these are unnecessary. Why borrow from protestant music when there is plenty of music available, waiting to be translated? Especially during the distribution of Communion? I know in my Tradition this time is most sacred and the music sung reflects deep theological insights - it's not a time to erase all that and play random music.
As to bookending - this is outside the Divine Liturgy and it's up to the parish - again, if it's not offensive, etc; I don't see anything wrong with that. But there is no way for a chancery to come out with a book of "permitted" protestant songs, when it's ultimately the pastor's decision. I know in my parish after the Divine Liturgy is completed and the curtain closed, sometimes the song will be "sacred contemporary" and 'okay'ed by the parish priest as non-heretical, etc.
I can understand having a cultural show, or any show, but why in the altar area, why not in a hall or at least close off the altar so as to not have it in view, when the performance is strictly non-religious in nature..
Seems to me that these are unnecessary. Why borrow from protestant music when there is plenty of music available, waiting to be translated? Especially during the distribution of Communion? I know in my Tradition this time is most sacred and the music sung reflects deep theological insights - it's not a time to erase all that and play random music.
As to bookending - this is outside the Divine Liturgy and it's up to the parish - again, if it's not offensive, etc; I don't see anything wrong with that. But there is no way for a chancery to come out with a book of "permitted" protestant songs, when it's ultimately the pastor's decision. I know in my parish after the Divine Liturgy is completed and the curtain closed, sometimes the song will be "sacred contemporary" and 'okay'ed by the parish priest as non-heretical, etc.
I can understand having a cultural show, or any show, but why in the altar area, why not in a hall or at least close off the altar so as to not have it in view, when the performance is strictly non-religious in nature..
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