www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News SCOBA STATEMENT ON MORAL CRISIS IN OUR NATION

//I don't consider the statement of the OCA bishops to be 'harassment' or anything of the sort. But I am saying, if the statements address one or another issue, when ignoring another that is right under their noses, then what am I supposed to think? That they're blind or unaware? Or that they're being selective?//

If you didn�t notice, the issue of same-sex marriage has been on the front burner. The Orthodox bishops, via SCOBA, responded to it. I am sure they were asked to respond and comment on same-sex unions just as they responded and commented on sex abuse. I can�t see how you would consider their statement to be �selective� unless you are implying that they have an agenda to look one way and not the other. If you feel that airport protocol is lacking in Orthodox clergyman, then you should probably ask SCOBA to make an official statement on it. With airport security and all as another big issue these days, there might have been other reasons why the cleric refused to help the lady. Probably for the same reason that you didn�t. Once, while my sister was enjoying a breakfast at the local Bob Evans restaurant, she witnessed a woman choking on a chicken bone. My sister was a nurse and immediately went over to the lady to do the Heinmick(sp?) maneuver. She couldn�t. The lady was very large. My sister asked the woman to lie down, which she did, and then she proceeded to push down in a different way. The chicken bone popped out and the lady didn�t choke to death. After she helped the lady to get up, the lady�s daughter and son both told my sister that she could have hurt their mother. No thank you was given. And my sister didn�t ask if she could put the chicken bone back in their mother�s mouth either. My sister only got a free lunch from the Bob Evans management. She was worried for a few days about being sued.

//Whatever the cause, when there is oppression, especially of Orthodox Christians, then the Orthodox Church is supposed to be a witness for justice? No? Or is the Orthodox (or Catholic) Church just supposed to follow some particular line of thought, regardless of the moral implications?//

First, an alleged protocol to harass Native Alaskans; second, a persecution; now, a programmed oppression of a particular people. What is it? You and your union buddies make some heavy accusations about what �seems to be� happening. You should probably be contacting the authorities in the State of Alaska rather than worrying about getting a response from SCOBA.

//Our Holy Father is quite clear on this as evidenced by his dealings with other Christian communities as well as non-Christian groups. Do American conservative political views as held by one or another override the example of the Holy Father? Is one's "Pope" Pat Robertson or James Dotson or John Paul II? I suspect that many American Catholics of the more 'conservative' persuasion (bad terminology) seek and find support in the Americanist Christianity of the heretical fundamentalist groups rather than in the "catholic" world-view of the Catholic Church.��

May I ask where you are going with this?

//Our Holy Father has embraced His Beatitude Bartholomew in order to re-establish the catholicity of the Catholic Church.//

Really? Was that the reason for the embrace � to �re-establish the catholicity of the Catholic Church?�

//While Orthodoxy as a Church reinforces a number of issues that are disquieting to traditionalist Roman Catholics (divorce 'economia', married clergy, infants as full members of the community, etc.), are we Catholics to eschew and condemn these Orthodox perspectives as 'sinful', and in direct contravention to the signified will of the Holy Father? With all due respect, who the hell are we to contravene what the Successor of Peter has modeled to us?//

What does all this have to do with the SCOBA statement on same-sex marriages?

//I suspect strongly that some folks are willing to use our Church as a validation for their socio-political agendas, while completely ignoring the current realities that, through grace, are clear to the Holy Father and the Holy See.//

Like who? Give examples. I am beginning to get the idea that your recent posts have absolutely nothing to do with an Orthodox cleric in an Alaskan airport.

//If this is the case, then I feel that those who contravene what the Holy Father does and says are indeed outside the parameters of the "Catholic Church" �//

Huh?

//We have the bishops and the hierarchy to guide the whole community in its pathway home to the Father. If one doesn't "like" what the Church is doing, then one can make representation to the bishop or to the synod. But if the official perspective includes things that one does not agree with, then it is time to move on, and admit, freely, that one is no longer in unity with the Catholic Church. Profess freely that one is a schismatic - or in appropriate cases - a heretic. The Church will still love the individual as a sinner, but decline to admit that the individual is still a canonical member.//

So, it �seems to me� what you are really saying is that you �dislike� the recent SCOBA statement because of what happened in Alaska between that Orthodox cleric and Native woman, and that people who don�t agree with the Pope should become who they really are: schismatic or heretical. Did I get everything in?

Joe

Dear Friends,

Like Cantor Joseph, I, too, have difficulty understanding Dr. John's rather copious posts here!

But his quoting of Pope John Paul II really won't help his argument since it is the Pope who has issued what amounts to a declaration of war against same-sex unions.

Or has Toronto's Cardinal Ambrozic REALLY misinterpreted things in this respect?

In any event, let me tell you what is happening in Canada, although I think you know.

The government has referred the issue of same-sex unions to the Supreme Court.

That way it can have its cake and still hope for re-election too.

We have a "constitutional democracy" here after all, not a parliamentary one (then why have a parliament?).

Even if Members of Parliament go against this issue, it is now to no avail since the Supreme Court judges will decide this matter and that is that.

The press is really going after Catholic bishops, including the one in the West who said he considers our Prime Minister to be excommunicated as a Catholic for supporting same-sex unions and wouldn't give him Holy Communion if he showed up for Mass in his Cathedral (We don't have time to read yet another copious response to this, Dr. John, Thanksgiving Day is fast coming upon us! ).

BUT the Quebec Bishops have said they will not comment on the matter and said "The Church is a faith community and not a pressure group." They are going to leave this matter alone.

AND, as reported on EWTN News, a priest in Northern Ontario made a sermon attacking the Vatican for its stand on same-sex unions (as a matter of fact, judging by the wording he used, I wonder if he is an acquaintance of Dr. John's? ).

The Bishop was notified, but the Bishop said while he spoke with his priest, he isn't going to do anything about his priest's sermon, free speech and all that (Perhaps this Bishop and you took the same moral theology classes together, Dr. John? ).

Michael Adams, our famous pollster (for whom I once worked as a summer student) came out to say that most lay Catholics in Canada support same-sex marriages and equal benefits for them.

Dr. John, perhaps you will read this post of mine as an advertisement to emigrate to Canada?

You are always welcome and, as you see, you would have plenty of people who would have a greater appreciation of your position . . . whatever it is . . .

Alex

I know! I know! [hands waiving] The position is: RELATIVISM.

Joe Thur

Glory to Jesus Christ!

How many more times do we need to "discuss" -- I use the term very loosely -- this issue or tangents of this issue?

It is clear that Dr. John, for all of his pious nonjudgmentalism, simply refuses to accept that the Church has not only the right but the obligation (1) to articulate Her divinely-inspired conception of moral virtue and (2) to propose to the secular polity that this conception ought to form the basis, in whole or part, of the common good that the polity legislates and enforces.

What is particularly disheartening is that those on this board who support same-sex unions, whether theologically, morally, or politically, have again and again refused to engage the issue head-on. The evasiveness of those who claim it is "unChristian" to support and pass laws that may have a religious pedigree has been downright exasperating.

Please, man, if you think it acceptable for a state to recognize same-sex unions, don't waste your time telling tales of Orthodox priests who don't carry their own luggage or of "what if... a Muslim became President and replaced our civil law with the Sharia?".

As an aside, how do you know the native woman didn't OFFER to carry the Orthodox priest's bags?

Enough with the jesuitical nonsense. Same-sex unions are immoral. They directly harm the participants and pollute the moral ecology of society as a whole. A government that permits or, God forbid, encourages such harm has forsaken its duty to serve the common good. End of story.

In Christ,
Theophilos

Dear Theophilos,

You put your finger right on it!

Dr. John has associated himself with Jesuits for too long!

Our pollster, Michael Adams, made the nonsensical claim that "Canadian Christianity" is in favour of same-sex unions.

He then said, in the same breath, that these " good Christians" are also ones who are unlikely to attend Church very much . . .

Good Christians who don't attend Church, hmmm . . .

So I guess when he once fired an employee for not paying attention to his orders and for poor attendance at work - he fired a "good employee?"

Cantor Joseph,

Unlike RayK, I didn't study Frommian thought in seminary.

"Relativism?" You mean those people Dr. John is defending are his relatives?

Then that would be the Ukrainian thing to do!

It all makes sense now.

Thank you, Big Guy!

Alex

Alex, can you explain "Canadian Christianity"? Is that the service that comes after donuts at Tim Horton's?

One can look at which religious orders in the Latin church are having success. Those committed to tradition. One good example is the Fraternity of St. Peter which has a waiting list for its seminary. And their stance on liturgical tradition is well known.

Likewise more traditional-leaning monastic communities are also enjoying success. All of these orders and communities take very seriously the Church's stance on morality and family life and practice what they preach. If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.

Dear Joe T and Diak:

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1. On 03 March 2003, Pope John Paul II approved, in audience with Cardinal Ratzinger, the final text of the document:"CONSIDERATIONS REGARDING PROPOSALS TO GIVE LEGAL RECOGNITION TO UNIONS BETWEEN HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS" drafted by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:

http://zenit.org/english/visualizza.p...phtml?sid=39664

2. On 03 June 2003, under the authority of His Holiness the Congregation issued the document signed by its Prefect, Cardinal Ratzinger, and by its Secretary, Angelo Amato, S.D.B., Titular Archbishop of Sila.

3. On 31 July 2003, the document was released officially to all the national episcopal conferences worldwide, including that of the United States, the USCCB.

4. On 01 August 2003, the USCCB, through its President, Bishop Wilton D. Gregory of the Diocese of Belleville, Illinois, issued a statement officially accepting the document for the USCCB (i.e., also for the Eastern Catholic Churches).

Since when did the Eastern Catholic Churches in the U.S. dismember themselves from the USCCB?

It is heartening, indeed, for the Catholic and Orthodox Churches to have unanimity on the evils that lurk behind homosexual unions, be they legalized or not.

Next, unanimity on artifical birth control and abortion?

AmdG

//Since when did the Eastern Catholic Churches in the U.S. dismember themselves from the USCCB?//

I never said they did.

Dear Joe:

That was a rhetorical question!

But the implication, I think, which I gathered from your quoted exchange with Diak was that the US Bishops (Latin and Eastern Catholic) HAVE NOT issued a statement on the subject (or that the Catholic Church has not).

Our Church (East and West Catholic) did, through the CDF as approved by the Holy Father, ahead of the SCOBA.

And that's the point, my friend.

AmdG

As I said, maybe now our bishops will do something since the Romans and SCOBA have paved the way...or at least publically affirm what the USCCB has said. I wish that statement was better publicized in the Catholic media, nearly a month later and that's the first I heard of it.

I have seen nothing of the sort in any recent Greek Catholic eparchial paper (I get four of them), only some updated guidelines on procedures for response and handling of clerical abuse situations.

Better late than never... if you can't walk behind the Latins in a procession, might as well be behind them in everything else!

Dear Friends:

Again, I wish to say it clearly: the document issued by the Holy See (the Vatican), through the CDF, is an offical statement FOR AND IN BEHALF OF the entire Catholic Church!

Unless the Eastern Catholic bishops have another viewpoint on the matter, the document, as accepted by Bishop Gregory, inures to the benefit of the ENTIRE membership of the USCCB (Eastern Catholic bishops included). It is THE official document for the US Catholic Bishops, Eastern and Western.

Need I say more?

AmdG

I suspect that some may be speaking past one another here.

It is entirely appropriate for the Holy See to issue teachings on behalf of the entire Church reinforcing Christian morality.

It is also appropriate for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops to issue specific teaching letters to Catholics (reinforcing Church teaching) and to society at large (the value of Christian morality in society).

It is also entirely appropriate for the United States Conference of Eastern Catholic Bishops, a local Synod of Bishops or Council of Hierarchs (or any individual bishop) to issue specific teaching letters to their faithful to reinforce Church teaching, to outline the steps which that local Church will take to accomplish this teaching, or to teach society about the value of Christian morality in society and the evilness of normalizing immoral activity.

Dear Admin:

I agree 100% on all your points!

But on the subject of legislating, or legalizing, the union of two homosexual individuals, as a "marriage," which is understood and considered by the Church, in her entirety, as a sacramental union solely between a man AND a woman for more than two millenia, the document "in response" to such a secular move has to come from the highest ecclesial authority.

The Holy See saw the wisdom of pre-empting national episcopal conferences by releasing the document on 31 July 2003 publicly, as this concerned a unified response to a frontal attack on Church moral values.

Not that the Eastern Catholic hierarchs do not possess the power to issue a complementary document, but the USCCB, of which they are members, has adopted the document issued by CDF with the prior approval of Pope john Paul II.

In fact, they can come up at any time with their own opinions, for as long as the same do not go against the grain of the principal document issued by the Vatican.

(But since when did the Eastern Catholic Bishops have their own "U.S. Conference of Eastern Catholic Bishops?") :p :p :p

AmdG

Amado,

Yes, we are in agreement on this. But if I am reading some of the other posts correctly some of the participants are expressing disappointment in our Eastern Catholic bishops for not issuing supporting teachings on the important issues of our age. To do so would not only benefit Eastern Catholics and the local communities in which they live, it would also greatly aid in developing an Eastern Catholic identity (that we are not ethnic Roman Catholics). The above statement issued by SCOBA carries more weight and earns more respect than one that might be issued by a local Orthodox Church or bishop.

BTW, there has always been a conference of Eastern Catholic bishops. They do meet separately in conference at the USCCB meetings. I don�t remember the exact title they go by but they have published a whole array of catechetical materials for Eastern Christians.

Admin