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Of course not.





Then we have failed for 2000 years and counting. The Church has never been of one mind except, perhaps, in the very most basic points of belief.





No, what I'm advocating is called freedom and a secular modern society.

To be specific, I'm advocating a separation of Church and State and a society in which people are free to privately follow --or not follow-- the religious teachings of their choice.

I'm advocating that here because of the topic here: a recent statement of the Vatican about the numbers of Catholics being less than the number of Muslims. The Vatican implied, in effect, that Catholics should imitate and out-compete Muslims in their birth rate by having more babies themselves.

From that, I deduce an enormous irony. One theocracy (the Vatican) is supporting the imitation of another theocracy (Islam), to which it is otherwise opposed, in order to out-compete it in birth rates.

In the face of that, I propose a third and better option: modernity. Specifically, I think we should stay fast in our modern mindset (instead of slipping back into a medieval theocratic mindset of 'make more babies to win'), and I propose introducing modernity into the Muslim world (so they will stop having so many babies and, perhaps, even become more mild in religion).

As an aside, you mentioned the dying off of mainstream Protestantism. Mainstream Protestantism is failing not because of freedom but because they have tossed away a real sense of a transcendent, living, divine Christ. The same is true for certain Catholic religious orders, sadly. Christianity without a transcendent Christ is only humanism. And why go to religious services if one is a humanist? However, Protestantism in its Evangelical and Charismatic forms is thriving. So too is Catholicism in its traditional forms.





The same as always: by faith !

The Church doesn't rise or fall on the basis of logic or administration. The Church rises or falls by faith in Christ -- or its absence.

Bob, I am not advocating the disassembling or destruction of the Church. Christianity is doing just fine where the people want it, and that is by their faith and God's grace.

Instead, I'm saying we should stay in the modern age, instead of slipping back into a medieval theocratic mindset. The solution to Muslims having more babies than Catholics is to get the Muslims to becomes modern and to stay modern ourselves.

-- John

JOHN:

Christ is in our midst!! Christ is Risen!!

I'm sure you kwow that this concept is an invention of the last century and comes from the U S Supreme Court in the late 1940s. It's an idea unknown in history prior to that. In the U S the Christian heritage of the West dominated culture up to and through that era. That heritage has only begun to be eroded in the time since then.


It's an awful small theocracy. Not a lot of people under Vatican law.


Are you sure? Or is this a reaction you're having? I haven't seen the statement but "implies" syas to me that you may be over reacting to what was actually said. Usually Roman statements are very well nuanced and I've never heard anyone come right out and say "head to be and procreate up a storm."


By your position, you negate this possibility. If everything is private opinion, there is no passing along of anything, even the Faith because any communication is private opinion and we are all in our own little bubbles with our own opinions and with no way to verify what is the Truth and what is not. The Deposit is an Absolute that all can approach, whether they wish to accept it or to misinterpret it. With everything reduced to private opinion and practice there is no room for any Absolute--and that's exactly what secular society would have us believe.

JOHN, to be honest I think we're far afield here. Even if some Vatican spokesman or other--or someone just shooting from the lip--made such an outrageous statement about Catholics needing to procreate more, I would argue that the real problem for us Christians is far more fundamental. I would posit that there are few of us with the courage of our own faith gift willing to lay down our lives for what we believe. And that is something that Muslims have demonstrated that they are more than willing to do. Whether the latter are wrong or misguided is not the point. Muslims have the courage to put their faith on the line. Given our own tendency to want to waffle--borne of the "Enlightenment," I think we're in a far weaker position. And Our Lord is worth far more than we seem willing to give Him bakc for all He has done for us.

My couple coppers tonight.

In Christ,

BOB

BOB,

The idea of separation of Church and State at least goes back to the writings of Thomas Jefferson, in the Virginia Statute on Religious Freedom in the late 1700s and again in his support for the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution. It is a basic foundation stone to American law and American ideas of freedom.

I will grant you that America was predominantly Christian (Protestant) in religion for most of its history, and that fact greatly influenced American law and culture. Happily --and I use that word deliberately-- America is becoming less and less of a Christian nation: as more and more secularism and other religions influence this country. The Christians can get back to the radical demands of the Gospel, and the rest of us sinners can live a little bit more at peace from Christian domination. I have had a belly full of it from the last 8 years, especially the last 4 years, politically and from religious leaders (both Christian and Muslim).

But back to the point of this thread: I do think that the Vatican statement had a clear inference. In brief: "See what happens when you use birth control? The Muslims out-reproduce us! Therefore, Catholics, get busy." At least, that seemed to be the impression that Fr. Serge had, to which I posted originally in order to respond.

Finally, and most bizarrely, Bob, you cited the Muslims' greater willingness to commit martyrdom as something . . . admirable? I hope I'm mistaken in my reading of your post. I think persecution is very bad, and I think martyrdom is at best a tragedy . . . And these days, with radical Islam, it is more of an excuse to commit wanton murder.

In sum, I really am getting tired of posting on this topic. But, I'll state my main point again. I think the Vatican is reverting to a medieval mindset of advocating no artificial birth control in order to make more babies in order to out populate the Muslims. And, I think the solution is not to make more babies nor to give up artificial birth control, but instead to convince the Muslims to stop having so many babies by getting the Muslims to adopt modernity and birth control and stand fast in our own civilization.

-- John

I would invite you to find some citations and further comment to support this. These days, what the Vatican wants to say, it says, hence Maghdi Christiano Allam.


If only we can get Muslims to embrace Banned Parenthood? Good luck with that John.

JOHN:

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

This whole area is off topic for this thread. It goes to politics. It's been debated, is being dabated, and will be debated. There seems to be no end to it.


Again, I think we're a bit off here. I don't think the inference is as clear as you seem to think it is. And I think you misinterpret what I said about the differences that really threaten us as Christians. This, again, borders on the political so I will briefly restate what I said and then withdraw from this. For better or for worse, the Muslims are willing to put their "money where their mouth is" when it comes to their convictions and we Christians seem to have lost the fire by comparison. With the influence of the Enlightenment, 20th century liberalism, and a whole host of other philosophical ailments, we have come to be the kind of people who think we can dialogue and negotiate with enemies who announce their clear intentions to be against us.

BOB

John,

"Commit" martyrdom? Although the term is not normally used that way, to commit martyrdom would be to put someone to death for their beliefs. Christians undergo martyrdom, and that is an important distinction. To put it another way, the early Christian martyrs were the original "non-violent protesters."

Muslims do misuse the term martyrdom, since they apply it to people who die in the process of killing others, but I think what Bob is emphasizing is their willingness to lay down their lives for what they believe, which in itself is admirable.

To say, however, that "martyrdom is at best a tragedy" is to deny one of the foundation stones of the Christian tradition. It is certainly a tragedy, but it is far more than that ...


Peace,
Deacon Richard