www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Reform In Orthodoxy?

Dear Friends,

An article written by an advisor to Bishops of the UAOC, discusses the need for reforms in Orthodoxy.

http://www.risu.org.ua/content.php?menu=1409&page_id=117&l=en


John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

The article is really interesting, but sorry to say, a little superficial.

�Over a century ago, Leo Tolstoy warned the church to reform. In Tsarist Russia, Orthodoxy endorsed a corrupt political system of repression, intolerance, and exploitation. Accumulating wealth, ignoring social justice,
reenforcing religious superstition, and failing to apply the faith to a changing society created a spiritual and intellectual decay�.

- Tolstoy was a pantheist. He never professed the embodiment of God. He did not recognize the Creator to be a Person. In what way he could judge whether the Church, whose doctrine was infinitely distinct from his one, was in spiritual corruption or not? As for moral behavior of particular persons, it can say nothing about the Church as whole. The same is concerning the unity of the Orthodox spiritual and czarist authorities. If it is not acceptable for today it does not mean that we should project our modern democratic values into the past, when in the �traditional society� people just did not divide the Empire into spiritual and temporal components.By the way, if Czarist Russia had really suppressed its people it would have not been able exist for lots of centuries.

�Not long thereafter Communists made Orthodox leaders, with few notable exceptions, political-servants of he Soviet regime�.

- Not correctly. There could not be any �notable exceptions� among the Church leaders in the Communist era. All of them were simply executed. You just had no alternative. You had to be loyal to the tyranny so as to keep living.

�If you were to compare 2002 with 1995, there is no question there are more of these cases" of harassing religious minorities. Quoted in the Washington Post, Uzzell added, "By fits and starts, Russia has suffered a slow loss of religious freedom."
Is Orthodoxy so fragile as to be threatened by Mormons, Catholics, Baptists, and Jehovah's Witnesses? Alexy II is even concerned that the Salvation Army feeds thousands of starving Russians. The Salvation Army has taken the word of God and put it into action�.

- When you are walking around St.-Petersburg downtown (Russia) you can see Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Armenian churches beside Orthodox ones, Hebrew and Moslem buildings, and a Mormon office as well. I personally live next to a Jehovah witnesses center, for instance. I have not ever seen even a tiny sign of possible riots around them. Honest.

�If these groups threaten Orthodoxy then there must be a reason. Are they better able to fill a spiritual void? Orthodoxy must show spiritual strength to answer this question honestly and then to take action.
The Russian patriarch criticized Pope John Paul II's visit to Ukraine. Why? Perhaps Orthodoxy has nothing to fear but itself. Ukrainian Orthodox leaders like Patriarch Filaret of Kiev greeted the Pontiff�.

- It is easy to explain. Filaret of Ukraine wanted to look well in the western public opinion in view of the lack of Orthodox Ukrainian supporters, while Alexis of Moscow tried to attract the same opinion to the problem that, as a rule, is not spoken out in the media. That is the persecutions against the Orthodox believers in the Western Ukraine, which sometimes is covered with religious slogans.

�Alexy II also wants to reassert the church's pre-Revolutionary status. He is misguided. Russia can not develop as a democracy if it creeps back toward a theocracy. The patriarch forgets the lessons when the church and Communists
conspired. The church looked the other way as self-serving Communists profited at the expense of the greater good. Communists bought the loyalty of Orthodox church officials. Orthodoxy and government must always be separate. If it isn't then government will corrupt the faith. Russia's inability to keep the spiritual from the secular played a major role in fostering the Communist Revolution�.

- It is a common mistake to take the Byzantine like Muscovite Kingdom for the Soviet Union where the Communist ideology, emerged originally in the West, was established. Of course, a secular government and the Church are foreign to each other. But he Patriarch implies something different. He regards all the Russian Orthodox believers as a whole, in which a ruler as the same member of the Christ Body as a subject. This is an archaic Byzantine and Old Russian concept, so it is not correct to comprehend it from the current westernized political point of view.

�The actions of the Moscow Patriarchate have implications for other branches of Orthodoxy. Reform is not a word often mentioned within the faith. But it seems needed. The church should keep some distance from politics, avoid discriminating against other religious groups, determine the reasons for the growing popularity of non-Orthodox denominations, and implement methods to make the church more inclusive for a population that feels at times alienated by Orthodox spiritual leaders�.
Paradoxically, the author stands for the same thing for which he reproaches the Patriarch. That is for instituting earthly issues within the Divine Church. Perhaps, there is a need of some ecclesiastical reforms, but first of all in Liturgical and not in church-political sphere.

Valerius

"Orthodoxia E Thanatos!", "Orthodoxy or Death!"

In Christ
Nektarios

Dear Valerius,

Thank you for the personal eye witness opinions about Russia you have shared with us. Please keep on sharing them!

Dear Nektarios,

I don't think that the particular slogan you posted is appropriate on an ecumenically hearted forum hosted by members of the Catholic church. Personally, I don't think that it is an appropriate slogan at all. As Mother Angelica once said, "EVERYONE loves their faith and SHOULD love their faith, and if they don't, there is something wrong with them."

Perhaps a more appropriate slogan for these troubled times, and for ALL times, should be: "Christianity or Death".

...and May our Lord have mercy on us that we may never have to utter those words...martyrdom may seem 'cool' in a slogan, but is a very difficult thing, with one not knowing how they will react in a situation that requires it.

So, please let's not banter around any of these sayings flippantly.

With love in Christ,
Alice

Dear Alice,

I am with Nektarios on the slogan, which is, of course, Athonite, with one proviso:

You speak, truly, of the possiblity of the words causing offense to the non-Orthodox members of the forum, as it may be taken as "hate speech".

I think, however, that what we ALL, Roman Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc....need to do is apply that slogan to our own worship.

If we adhere to "orthodox" worship, in that sense, and HOLD fast, and determined, and true, to our beliefs, than much of the trouble of this world would be averted. The innovations which cause such great pain to the Catholics, the Basilians who continue to plague the Ukrainians, much would be averted if we all knew the correct worship of our traditions, and strove to honor it, and kept in our hearts above all that Christ commanded us to LOVE.

If we remember that commandment above all, and then placed ourselves in the position of saying each day, God comes first, according to the rules and practices of my Church...then we are all (small o) orthodox. And we may say, orthodoxy or death!

It is in no wise a "cool slogan" to many, and especially it is difficult for young converts.I know that Nektarios and at least one other teen on this forum have had very serious repercussions on the family and friends front because of their conversions. As an adult I have had to make very painful decisions to part ways with friends who have become athiests, and chose to mock my faith. Martyrdom and persecution for Christ does not always equal physical suffering. It can mean refusal to turn your back on Him, regardless of emotional pain.

Unfortunately, when one has spoken in the past as Nektarios has done, it colors one's judgment of him. I understand that. But he is correct in what he says. He is an Orthodox Christian, and adopting the slogan of Mt. Athos as a guiding slogan, if constantly applied with love (listening, Nektarios??) as the Athonite fathers do, is correct for him.

For the rest, applying it with love, and small "o" orthodoxy to Catholicism, Protestantism, or whatever religion one professes, is truly the ONLY way to practice a religion...else, what good to say one follows Christ, if one does so half-heartedly? HE died for US...can we not try to show him as great a devotion as our wholly human nature is capable of by believing what He teaches us?

Gaudior, somewhat randomly this morning.

Dearest Gaudior,

I understand what you are saying, and I think that in someways we may be saying the same thing?

I do not condemn Nektarios nor the Athonite monks (one of whom is presently my spiritual father), but do not like the way in which some of them banter this slogan...One example that comes to mind is a well known internet poster of the schismatic HOCNA that deems everyone, including the SCOBA canonical jurisdictions, 'heretics'.

However, what particularly comes to mind is the scandal the Esphigmenou monks brought to the whole world when they chanted this in the streets of Athens before the Pope's trip to Greece.

Greek citizens, Greek Orthodox, Greek clergy, the Greek government and Greek Orthodoxy were all smeared by the SPIRIT in which this slogan was used by them and flashed across t.v. screens and newspaper headlines the world over.

Our religion--and I believe that you will agree here, is not about hate and triumphalism, it is about love and finding the path of theosis to Christ through the Church.

I meant no offense to Nektarios (or anyone else) personally, and I am sure that you , of all people, know that.

I do think that we have to remember that physical martyrdom--in this case, invoked in the 'or death ' part of the slogan is no easy thing and we should pray that we never, ever have to face that choice.*shuddering*

THAT is what I meant by using this strong phrase, (with its often hijacked innuendos, interpretations and intentions, and its multi-faceted spiritual challenges and exegesis), flippantly.

With love in Christ,
Alice

P.S. Personally, because I think that this phrase also carries alot of the historical Eastern/Western baggage of the second millenium, in the spirit of the purification of memory which is sorely needed in this millenium, I would still prefer 'Christianity or Death'!

Just my two cents!
Perhaps we shall have to agree to disagree!

In all humility,
Alice

Dear Alice....

ABSOLUTELY!
On all counts!

That to which you refer was a scandal, as demonstrations are a political thing, and Orthodox are not to engage in them...I support Esphigmenou in their stance of non-commemoration, though, as they were blatantly tricked, but do NOT support them in the demonstrations.

Martyrdom, btw, is not something ever to be sought, and always to be avoided if possible...Our Church teaches us this!

And yes, that particular slogan has become hate-speech lately, but I believe that the original was not used this way.

Schismatics (HOCNA, et al) use this to no good, and it sickens me, as when you have the perversion of words of truth, one can no longer utter those words without seeming like those others.

I have dear friends who are Anglican, Catholic, and Eastern Catholic, and some of those are more spiritually grounded than many Orthodox.

As, of course, you know!

My point is only, one MUST BE what one professes, or else there is no point! That, I believe, is why the world is in the sad state it is in...the number of polls that have been done which show clergy who do not believe in the faith they impart to others simply astounds...and that is CLERGY! Then the people...Believe, and be ORTHODOX in your beliefs...or you get a form of "cafeteria Christianity" where everyone picks and chooses what he believes in, and sets up a church in his home, making himself Metropolitan, Pope, or pastor...this crosses all denominations, btw, the Orthodox, Catholics, and of course, Protestants, all have splinter sects because people choose to believe what they want, and throw out whatever makes them uncomfortable.

But you know this, and I am preaching to the choir! And I know you meant no disrespect to others personally...You are the very soul of respect! I was more pointing that out to others, as well. Sometimes with youth, especially, thy look to exactness, when they are the only ones in their family, and have given up so much. It is very difficult, and often others do not understand what it cost them.

Gaudior, continuing to ramble, as it is that kind of day

Can anyone say with whom this "Sobornopravna" group out of Cleveland is in communion?

Since Orthodoxy is the only true form of Christianty it is proper to say "Orthodoxia E Thanatos", by professing this statment you are professing true Christianity which is Orthodoxy.

In Christ
Nektarios

Traditionally, we have referred to the Church as Catholic (kata 'olon = according to the whole = complete/lacking nothing; i.e. not waiting for further revellations).

We have referred to the faith as "Orthodox" (ortho doxia = correct worship/glorification; i.e. worship appropriate to God).

Increasingly through these latter years, the Eastern Orthodox point to the declining standards of worship in the West to emphasize how the Western Church has become less than Orthodox in its worship.

If we are doing our job, we will also criticize such declining standards as are found among the Eastern Orthodox Churches as well.

At the same time, the Eastern Orthodox also point to the proclamations of dogmata ex-cathedra, dogmata that the Easterners (not in communion with Rome) are not obligated to share, which ergo imply that the Eastern Church (not in communion in Rome) is somehow lacking in her dogmata. While this may not have been said explicitly by the West, it is the logical conclusion to draw.

Defining the faith handed down once and for all by the apostles as a foundation (parathiki), in a dogmatic manner (i.e. what one MUST believe), is a task traditionally reserved to the Ecumenical Councils, not to one Patriarch, even if he is the primatial one.

Those who use the expression "Orthodoxy or Death" are hopefully using it to include the common Orthodox and Catholic heritage shared by both the Eastern and Western Churches and not only to point out the more recent Western deviations as seen from the Eastern Orthodox (not in communion with Rome) perspective.

In Christ,
Andrew

When I use this phrase, I mean it only for the Eastern Orthodox Church, nothing eles because only the Eastern Orthodox Church is true Christianity.

It doesnt matter what "heretiage" Orthodox and Latins share, they are still in heresy. So Yes it does point out the "recent" Western deviations, but it also proclaims that we want nothing then Patristic Orthodoxy.

In Christ
nektarios

Exactly what is your purpose of posting at a CATHOLIC forum?

CHristian

Do you mind? We were having the conversation, we dont need your 2 cents, and dumb comments.

Nektarios

I pray someone answers my post regarding the role of the Russian Orthodox Church in a united Church (in the East-West Forum). It seems intimately connected to this topic.

Dear ByzantineAscetic,

Way off the topic: How do you feel about intercommunion in cases of emergency for the spiritual benefit of the recipient? I think most, if not all, Oriental Orthodox have official agreements with the Catholic Church regarding the matter.

Is schism the same as heresy? I have read that at worst the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches are in schism. This is the first time in a while I have heard/ read the word "heresy" being bandied about.

ByzantineAscetic, if it is appropriate, perhaps we can discuss this on another thread, if you so choose.

Blessings,

Marduk

P.S. I think Christian's question was appropriate, and ByzantineAscetic, perhaps you could have responded a bit more charitably.