www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Lost Respect For The Pope

If one has been told by their spiritual father/mentor/advisor;priest or bishop that they should not receive Holy Communion, and they do it anyway, then their actions are to the detriment of their own soul.

There is a problem with upholding the law of the land as a politician, and perhaps not condoning the action of that law within one's own set of beliefs and soul. I am not a Democrat, but do we really know what Democratic politicians feel personally about the sin of abortion?

The law of legalized abortion could be equated to the practice of capital punishment as well. There is a seperation of church and state here and in many countries, and this makes for a difficult situation for politicians in general. On the other hand, please do not think that abortions will go away if they are outlawed...they will be directed back to back room and butchers as they have been throughout history in this country and in many other countries.

We should pray for a change of culture (as the Pope said about the pedophile scandal: America is over sexualized), that will change the hearts and the numbers of unfortunate abortions which occur.

Getting back to who should receive Holy Communion or not, that is also something which needs to be dealt with through confession and only through confession. If we are to be police, do we know how many married persons are receiving due to the sexual culture we live in that should not, for instance, do we know who has had a vasectomy or tubal ligation, or who has had difficulty conceiving, and turned to in vitro fertilization (which leaves many unplanted created embryos/lives to exist in stasis for ever)...or how many unmarried persons are engaging in premarital sex?

Our over sexualized culture and science together have created a world which is increasingly frightening and confusing from a moral and ethical point of view. I would definitely NOT blame the Pope for any of this...

In conclusion: though I am not a fan of these particular politicians, for all we know, they may have gotten permission to receive Holy Communion from their spiritual fathers!!! If not, let us not judge, and let us remember that if we are not worthy by the permission and standards of our Holy Churches (which can vary slightly), then we receive, not to the benefit, but to the detriment of our own souls!

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the living God, have mercy on ME a sinner!

Alice

We must keep something in mind. Politicians are public figures and their political positions/policies are known, i.e. "pro-abortion". By receiving communion they are causing scandal. Should you or I, as private persons, hold positions contrary to Church teaching, receiving communion is indeed something that should be taken up with one's confessor but there is no public scandal. For a private person, it is correct to reserve judgment; for a politician whose policies are publicly known as contrary to Church teaching however, the Church has the authority/duty to withhold communion until such time as the contrary position(s) are rectified. This was made very clear by then Cardinal Ratzinger to Cardinal McCarrick in the memo "Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion":

"Regarding the grave sin of abortion or euthanasia, when a person�s formal cooperation becomes manifest (understood, in the case of a Catholic politician, as his consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws), his Pastor should meet with him, instructing him about the Church�s teaching, informing him that he is not to present himself for Holy Communion until he brings to an end the objective situation of sin, and warning him that he will otherwise be denied the Eucharist."

Ray,

I am in agreement with you (and Cardinal Ratzinger) that publicly unrepentant pro-abortion Catholic politicians should be denied Holy Communion. Archbishop Burke of St. Louis has done a wonderful job defending this practice from Scripture, Tradition, and Canon Law.

However, I think you are off-base in laying this incident at the feet of the pope. It is simply not possible for the Pope to deny communion to someone in a crowd this size who does not come forward to him. I seriously doubt he kept abreast of exactly who was coming to the Mass, and which ones said they would receive communion. American politics are not nearly as important to him as it is to us.

The fact remains, the priest administering communion to Mr. Kerry, for example, should have denied it to him. But if he was a priest of the archdiocese of DC, then he most likely was taking his lead from his Ordinary, Archbishop Wuerl, who has said that these politicians should not be denied. Either way, the fault cannot lie on the Holy Father in this particular instance.

Are these politicians 'pro' abortion (therefore, they like abortion, believe in abortion, think abortion is good?) or are they upholding the law of legalized abortion?

Should politicians that uphold the law of capital punishment also be denied communion?

This can all be so confusing...

I am just wondering, and thinking outside of the box....

In any case, the Pope has given autonomy to the U.S. Bishops, so he really shouldn't be questioned as far as these moral/sacramental dillemas.

Alice, who thinks abortion is murder and is terrible and wishes that we did not live in a culture of sexual promiscuity which makes it widely used, and am glad that we have a President who bravely and publicly holds a position against it's practice...

Must this be reduced to the absurd?

Anna, I used to agree with that point of view. Then I had a conversation with a priest on this very topic about four years ago, and he raised the objections that I raised.

The pro-abortion politician can be easy to spot and to forbid from Communion. What about the guy who is a parish council member but who is also a secret enjoyer of child pornography? (That actually happened in a local parish in my area a few years ago.) What about the guy who gets drunk and cheats on or beats on his wife the night before? If people think they can get away with sinning and going to Communion, they will have to reckon with God. But how do we separate the all the repentant from the hypocrites in the Communion line?

I agree with Alice that there needs to be, in both the Catholic Church and in the Orthodox Church, a real renewal of the Mystery of Repentance. Not just "confession." There needs to be a revival of Repentance (Metanoia). With a better understanding of Metanoia --what it is, how it is accomplished-- confession becomes a tool for Repentance. And then, Repentance leads naturally to Communion -- for those who take it seriously.

-- John

We are dealing with what moral theology calls "formal cooperation."

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is risen!!
Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

As an ex-Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion, let me offer my experience in similar situations.

We had a meeting of the parish's ministers and asked about this same question. We were told that we did not have the right to refuse anyone in our line, even if we knew they were not prepared, not worthy, did not hold Catholic beliefs about the Eucharist, or for any other reason.

The same could be said for the priests in the Archdiocese of Washington. They are the bishop's delegates wherever they serve. They do not make this type of decision by themselves. They might even be in jeopardy if they took such a stand and their bishop--Cardinal Wuerl--laid out his pastoral approach as their bluepirnt for their own ministry.

It may make for tough living, but sometimes the best thing to do is leave these things up to the Lord. I've often thought about receiving the Lord myself. He is vulnerable as He lies in my hands. But how about me when I did and land in His Hands? So I tell those who will listen that the measure with which we prepare and treat Our Lord when He lies in our hands will be the measure He uses with us when the situation is reversed.

And it will be.

It's good to remember that for many people who have no more instruction in the Faith after their First Communion what they may know or believe about the Eucharist can have eroded to the point that this receiving is simply habit and that they may have little idea of the implications of what receiving Our Lord are. Reminds me of the Scripture where Our Lord says people argue at the Judgement that "we fed at Your Table" and He insists He does not "know" them.

BOB

I think it very likely that in giving communion to hundreds and hundreds of people it would become a blur of faces. The minister would be too busy picking up the next host, making sure he had enough hosts, etc to regard individual faces. I wouldnt know Nancy Pelosi or John Kerry on the street. Also if communion had been refused to those particular people while thousands likely just as unworthy to receive were allowed it would be a media circus for weeks and anything else that occurred during the papal visit would be virtually ignored.

I'm disappointed but not at all surprised. I believe the proper way to deal with this problem once and for all, is to simply excommunicate Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, Rudy Giuliani and others who have provided more than ample evidence that they reject the Church's teachings in no uncertain terms. Or should excommunication just be reserved for people like Joe DiMaggio.

I do not judge. I never feel myself worthy let alone worry if someone else is worthy. I approach the Eucharist humbly reminded of the words of Aquinas, "I come sick to the doctor of life".

I pray my unworthy reception of the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ will be for my salvation rather than my condemnation.

I agree with Alice's statement that pretty much the whole assembly receives Communion on any given Sunday and I also agree the sacrament of confession has fallen by the wayside. Though one is able to receive if they have not committed grave sin.

Years ago we were all too often taught the wrath of God to the point of unwarranted fear. Today we are taught the mercy and love of God, all too often to the point where we have no fear of God. A balance must be struck. This is where present day catechesis must lead.

The catechesis of the past years is not so much lacking as adherence to the morals and teachings of the faith is lacking. The secular world was never as influentual as it has been in recent years due to the rapid growth of mass media, a media that could care less for the most part about faith and morals.
I truly don't believe everyone was more devout in their faith forty+ years ago than people are now. Most of the people who were devout 40 years ago are still so now as will most people who were devout 5, 10, 15, or however many years now will be devout 40 years from now. The church has always been full of the lukewarm.

May we all find our way to faith and His presence,
Bill

Bob,

Do you know something we don't know?

Archbishop Wuerl is a good, faithful, passionate and holy man. He served Pittsburgh well and I'm sure he'll do the same in D.C.
Many Years!

Did I read this correctly? Archbishop Wuerl requires that Holy Communion be given to all comers? HELP!

Fr. Serge

A Catholic priest told me that there are only a handful of Catholic Bishops here in the USA who guard the chalice -- other than that, all the rest give out communion like candy.

Then they wonder why Catholics do not believe in the Holy Eucharist today ... or why less than 40 percent really believe in the real presence.

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee00000000000000000000000WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.

Did not Judas partake and a few hours after having partaken Peter deny Him.

Lord Jesus Christ be my Judge.