www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Pope bans "novus ordo" restores "tridentine mass"

Thank you for that testimony, Theophan. God give us very many
more priests like your former pastor. I personally think that
the NO was too hastily composed (is that the right word?) and
could do with some tweaking, but put that aside.

Much of the ire directed against the NO should instead have
been directed against the ICEL, and that problem, let us hope,
will soon be resolved.

But the heart of the problem is and has been neither the form of
the NO itself nor of poor translations,but the formation
and discipline of priests, and that is the responsibity of the
bishops. That responsibility has been very gravely neglected
(shall I say damnably neglected/rejected?) over the last forty
years by many of them and not just in America. The Eucharist is
the heart of the Church; to overlook or allow or encourage the
abuse of its celebration is thus an assault on the Faith and
thus again on Christ Himself.

We have heard much in recent days about the Pew Report's claim
that one out of every ten Americans is an ex-Catholic. I am dubious
about such statistics, but we all know that there have
been mass defections. Can we make a connection?

Veni Creator Spiritus [i]

Edmac

Edmac:

Christ is Rsien!! Indeed He is Risen!!!

I wholeheartedly agree with you here. Some 40 years ago, seminary catalogues contained a course description of a class called "Rites" that walked a man through the way in which the Liturgy and other services were to be done. Since that time, the emphasis has been on the seminariain "developing his own style" with little or no training on how to do it. In this light we had a seminarian in the past few years who spent summers and term breaks at our parish and was in his second year of a three-year program. He had not yet been trained to serve as an acolyte at that point. Somehow his seminary--a place of formation, lest we forget--thought that all it took was to put a man in a vestment and turn him loose. We also had a priest sent to us about 20+ years ago that our pastor told me was ordained and sent to us but who didn't even know how to navigate the Missal. The pastor asked me, rhetorically, what he was supposed to do. He said he'd had to actually walk him through the Liturgy before he could let him serve. This latter man was in a program in the 1970s where everything was an elective and he had little idea about counseling, tehology, or preaching. Pray for him, he died before he was with us too long.

So, yes, I'd say there was a problem in formation, but tackling it is bigger than most bishops have the time or inclination to do.

In Christ,

BOB

Edmac,

Did I miss something? Did anyone on this thread put forward the idea that the Novus Ordo is an invalid Mass? That's worlds away from saying it's banal, or...I don't know...an on-the-spot product or something.

Alexis

No, Alexis, but,for one thing, there are those who think it
is and this kind of humor might lend them aid and comfort.
For another, for the honor and dignity of the Church, the
NO needs to be defended against its more ill-considered
critics. Consider what Theophan has said about his former
pastor's celebrations.

Edmac

Maybe just start by banning guitars and any songs (note I did not say "hymns") written since 1965. And maybe also Communion in the hand.

I attend a traditional Latin mass when I can get up early enough for it. Some of my friends in the parish, when on topic, speak as though the Novus Ordo is invalid. One time during conversation a man I befriended was speaking against the NO mass. I asked him if the bread and wine remained unconsecrated in the hands of his priest during the English or Latin Novus Ordo mass. He knew where I was going and changed subjects before we got deeper on the issue than he wanted.

I was wondering what the best way to challenge a person caught with that perception is. Some people do not move for or against positions "with love", they identify themselves very strongly on a side of the issue and refuse to open their ears to disagreement, even if it comes from Rome.

They treat it like politics or war. Is there any way to handle these people in conversation that gets them off their high horse and points them to the heart of the matter?

Terry

I have seen books offered by Ignatius, Roman Catholic Books etc. that address that issue. one text attacks the illusion that the Elements are not validly consecrated in a NO Mass while championing the Tridentine Mass. while I have not read the work, it seems to me that there is a balanced discussion in that area that would benefit not only Roman Rite folks, but people like myself who receive the Mysteries in a Roman parish, inasmuch as there is no EC parish in my town.
Much Love,
Jonn

Edmac,

About 15 years ago, the memoirs of Abp. Annibale Bugnini, the president of the "Consilium" that created the NO, were published. These helped to explain a lot of the motivation behind the changes that were made, especially the ones that were *unofficial*. (I believe the title of the book was The Reform of the the Roman Liturgy--1961 to 1973, but I don't remember exactly.)

So, we can now answer why so much experimentation was done--Bugnini himself encouraged it. While the "official" text and directives of the NO were relatively conservative, this book makes it fairly clear that Bugnini saw the NO as only a step towards the reform he had in mind.

Another notable thing about the book was the conspicuous lack of a coherent rationale as to why certain changes needed to be made. There were plenty of suggestions, and no lack of insistence that the changes "needed" to be made, but I was unable to find much by way of a real explanation. (In fairness, I should add that I didn't read the book exhaustively, and it's possible I just missed it. )


Peace,
Deacon Richard

I have attended a few reverently celebrated NO masses, namely by priests from Opus Dei, but given the choice, I'd opt for the Tridentine 100 pct of the time. When I closely compare the two masses I'm always puzzled that anyone would ever attend an NO mass when a Tridentine was available.

Would anyone happen to know what would be the percentages would be per Norvus Ordo, Tridentine, Byzantine Liturgy & etc in relation to what Saints went to what type of Mass or Liturgy?

in other words what Mass or Liturgy produced more Saints?

I would say that no Liturgy ever produced any Saint.

Saints are produced by their faith and the actions which demonstrate that faith.

If one believes in "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church", then I would think that all Saints are present at all Liturgies.

The Saints we know are those whose lives, works, and miracles have been recorded.

Most Saints, especially the countless Martyrs of the 20th Century, are known only to God.

Now, now - Liturgy is certainly supposed to be salvific and sanctifying. One may legitimately question whether "Clown Masses", priests dressed up like the Easter Bunny, or a Cardinal paying several thousand dollars to have his coat of arms hand-embroidered with red thread on red velvet are the sort of phenomena which are likely to sanctify anyone.

At the same time, it is quite true that the vast majority of Saints are not known to us here. Sainthood is a mystery; in most cases a Saint while still in this life walks with God alone, and would find it difficult, if not impossible, to explain exactly what was taking place. The exception is martyrdom, but asking a Martyr to explain exactly what is taking place while he is in the midst of being done to death for the Faith is not an activity I would recommend! It happens often enough that a man who does not seem to have much in the way of an active faith nevertheless becomes a Martyr, but again, asking him to explain it all while it is happening is not really a good idea.

I'm not a Saint, and I don't know whether I am the sort of person who would be a Martyr (I doubt it strongly), so that's really all I can offer on the subject.

Fr. Serge

Dear Fr. Deacon Richard;

I had missed your post in reply to mine. I can recommend
Denis Crouan's books The Liturgy Betrayed(1997) and
The History and the Future of the Roman Liturgy(2001)
for discussions of why the various changes to the Mass were
made and what happened afterwards. Crouan is French. What he
says about the condition of the Church in France, and especially
the episcopate, is horrifying. No wonder their churches are
empty. It makes our situation in the USA look like a (much
neglected) rose garden.(The books were published by Ignatius
Press).

His argument is that the problem is not the NO in itself, but
with the infidelity and disobedience of many who celebrate it
as well as poor priestly formation.

I think Crouan is less critical of the changes made to the
Mass than he might be, but he was apparantly writing against
its more extreme critics. I myself would maintain, for one
thing, that the "Prayer of the Faithful" should have a set
form rather than being a more or less extemporaneous composition
by the priest (or whomever does it). The Latin Church would do
well to adapt or even borrow The Litany of Peace for an ordinary
celebration and other Byzantine litanies for occasions like
weddings and funerals.

Edmac

Yes,

you put it well, what I am thinking (try and clarify a little more)

does the difference between East and West Faith's or "Theology" stunt or produce more Saints?
could there be such a difference that would hinder, or help their growth in holiness and faith ( the difference in theology/philosophy also have an effect, does it make a difference?)

Rachael

Actually, there *are* requirements for that set of prayers, including what each of the five is to address--though seldom followed. There are also (optional) standard forms.

Personally, I'd like to seek the vapid singing of the Responsorial Psalms banned. Chant them like Psalms or recite them, but the goofy, repulsive singing *really* needs to end.

hawkk