To have that satanic blasphemy going on as a recognised and approved part of the Church would certainly signal that "the smoke of Satan had entered the Catholic Church," to borrow a phase I heard somewhere.
What a coincidence that you make that comment, Father!
Just a few days ago there was an interview with Cardinal Virgilio Noe, the chief Vatican liturgist during the pontificate of Pope Paul VI, who states that the "smoke of Satan" comment by His Holiness Paul VI was in reference to liturgical abuses.
Paul VI�s denunciation of the presence of the smoke of Satan in the Church is unforgettable. Still today, that discourse seems to be incredibly relevant.
You from Petrus, have gotten a real scoop here, because I am in a position to reveal, for the first time, what Paul VI desired to denounce with that statement. Here it is. Papa Montini, for Satan, meant to include all those priests or bishops and cardinals who didn�t render worship to the Lord by celebrating badly (mal celebrando) Holy Mass because of an errant interpretation of the implementation of the Second Vatican Council. He spoke of the smoke of Satan because he maintained that those priests who turned Holy Mass into dry straw in the name of creativity, in reality were possessed of the vainglory and the pride of the Evil One. so, the smoke of Satan was nothing other than the mentality which wanted to distort the traditional and liturgical canons of the Eucharistic ceremony."
I can assure you, Father, that what is shown on that video is not an approved form of celebrating the Holy Mass.
[The Missa Luba was recorded in the 1950s - I still have the record also.]
The attempts to "ordain" bishopesses, priestesses, and so forth have nothing whatever in common with either Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy. They are, quite simply, parodies of the Holy Mysteries. People who involve themselves with them out of ignorance should be taught, patiently, the Church's teaching on the matter. People who commit such parodies in an attempt to "force" the Church to do what the Church has no authorization to do should simply realize that attempting to force God (which is what it comes down to) is a ridiculous waste of time and effort, that can cause nothing but grief and pain.
Is it possible for a woman to think, honestly, that she has such a vocation? It is possible for people to think all sorts of things - but anyone, regardless of gender, who seeks to discern a vocation must submit the matter to the Church. I might feel called to be the Pope, or the Emperor, or whatever, but I am not free to crown myself!
You are a blessing to the Church, Bob. I have been blessed to read your posts and have always been uplifted by them.
God bless you.
Originally Posted by theophan
FATHER DAVID and YUHANNON:
...For a long time, I had to ask myself if this could be the Apostolic Church. Since the law of prayer is the law of belief, it would seem that our beliefs are also something that can be constantly changed according to the whims of the moment. And that, to me, puts us on some very shaky ground.
But, as I put it on another thread, I've been called a "conservative," "orthodox," and "dangerous" (sometimes all together) for the past 40+ years so I'm automatically judged to be some fringe figure. OTOH, my last spiritual father used to say that I was his touchstone with sanity in a clerical world where he was constantly put through "ongoing formation of the clergy."
I do not think that any Eastern Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Priest would dance with the Eucharist in hand. There is just too much risk of a trip and fall.
And I get asked by Simple Sinner why I would want to leave the Catholic Church for the Orthodox.
Stephanie it is just plain sad how you take private conversation - once and again - out of context.
For the record, I never asked you why you would want to leave, I asked you why you would stick around for a couple years of ECF before leaving - disaffected - for an Orthodox Church which will require you to repudiate the church you are in now. More plainly if you are on your way (and you think you know it) to repudiating the Church you are in now, why stick around for the benefit of the ECF program when I have more than enough confidence the OCA (or whichever jurisdiction you may seek membership in) could competently provide catechesis and formation for your children.
If you think we are wrong now, why not leave now rather than wait until you are done reaping the benefits that membership with us have?
If you want to quote me from conversations we don't have publicly, do it honestly and accurately.
42. Among some peoples, singing is instinctively accompanied by handclapping, rhythmic swaying and dance movements on the part of the participants. Such forms of external expression can have a place in the liturgical actions of these peoples on condition that they are always the expression of true communal prayer of adoration, praise, offering and supplication, and not simply a performance.
It can be argued -- as do many conservatives and traditionalists like myself -- that this passage should be understood as applying only to tribal cultures and non-Western civilizations for which inculturation of the sacred liturgy might have to involve assimilating sacred dances. The fact remains, though, that the text itself is vague enough, and seems to allow for liturgical dance as long as it is an "expression of true communal prayer" -- which can cover a lot of things. Charismatics, in particular, can claim that they should be allowed to dance in the Mass because dancing is commanded (!) by the Old Testament as a form of worship. (I'm not making this up; I've actually heard this argument from charismatic elders)
Full-scale liturgical dance was performed in many papal liturgies in the final years of Pope John Paul II's reign. One thinks of the canonization of St. Juan Diego at the Guadalupe Basilica, with its full scale Indian tribal dancing inside the Church. There was also liturgical dancing in some of the World Youth Day Masses.
As for the "Danza Liturgica" video, things like that happen quite frequently in a lot of youth and charismatic liturgies. In my own home diocese, full-fledged dance numbers are now performed before the end of each Mass in many (if not most) parishes.
I hate liturgical dance, but what can I do when Pope John Paul II allowed it? (Same goes for women servers, vastly expanded use of communion in the hand, etc.) And, contrary to popular perception, there is no Vatican instruction that has officially restricted what Varietates Legitimae allowed. Cardinal Ratzinger's attack against liturgical dancing (Spirit of the Liturgy pp. 198-99) does not rank as an official Vatican instruction, even though we'd love to see it treated like one.
Ahh Alexandr... Are you familiar with the film Casablanca?
Quote
Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds? Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here! [a croupier hands Renault a pile of money] Croupier: Your winnings, sir. Captain Renault: [sotto voce] Oh, thank you very much. [aloud] Captain Renault: Everybody out at once!
More honestly - spare the theatrics at being shocked that in the Universal Church where inculturation has been respected as a tenant of our evangelization since the Great Commission (why after all is their divergence in the liturgical rites of Latins, Greeks, Syrians, Copts...)
All of you here of a mind to do so can make fun all that you please until the cows come home, take a disco nap and head out again... For what reason though? Polemic? To haughtily raise our head in triumph like the Pharisee who offers in prayer his gratitude that he is not like THOSE men?
In the course of the long and winding road of my life and recent informal apostates I have found myself in a situation where I have unworthily been graced by God Himself to crawl out of my den of self-loathing and casual drug abuse to be co-workers in the service of the Gospel alongside a "Nestorian" who was received into unia on Pentecost while counseling an Evangelical minister about to become Catholic and an Orthodox priest with questions. My best friend is an RC religious and it was a Maronite laymen so many years ago that I listened to in lecture who gave me keys and tips for prayer I am convinced brought me home to the mysteries via the Greek Catholic Church of my grandmother. The Lord works in mysterious ways indeed....
So while in other parts of this fora it is being decried how those lousy Romans were insensitive I marvel and shake my head (hat tip to him who understands) at how it can be the case that parochial sensitivities can be presented by folks who want to marvel and shake their head at just how NOT Byzantine this sort of clip is. We don't like how Bishop Ireland of a century ago treated us (so much so it remains a hot topic) but want to deride these folks? I should be so holy and convinced that I alone have the right approach to stand in judgement in a fashion of judging so otherwise utterly rejected when applied to US!
So to all of you so secure in your own salvation and righteousness I say simply this: go ahead and post more of what is meant to be embarassing footage of those who are in the Catholic Church. Go ahead and implicitly mock brothers and judge them in a fashion we have roundly rejected when we found ourselves on the wrong end of judgement and misunderstanding. Pretend like you are not JUST LIKE Bishop John Ireland who took one look at us and only saw some dirty unwashed "hunkies" that were not Christian the right God-fearing way.
In turn never mind that our patrimony itself does not represent some pristine presentation of Apostolic Christianity found in the Upper Room at Pentecost... Go ahead and pretend like the semitic Apostles would not have found our affected Greek ways, our bishops' crowns, or iconostasis at least somewhat odd and different from what they had that was "pure".
The efforts to always look for shock and scandal on the part of some is just plain sad. If you are confident that you have a pristine truth, attempt to "sell" people on its own merits. Don't denigrate it in a fashion not dissimilar to the wrongful "Latins" who failed to imagine a vibrant and saintly spirituality outside of their own.
In my remarkabley failed efforts at gentrification here in a state that far surpasses the national standards and statistics for foreclosures I was within a stone's throw from a Catholic parish dedicated to the sanctification of African Americans. When I attended that parish one Sunday and found it to be the case that Protestant influenced Gospel Music held sway, should I have taken footage on my cell phone for all here to marvel and shake their head at how those folks - in one of the poorest ZIP codes of Ohio - worshipped? Would that have been edifying and satisfying to folks here to stand in judgement of how my neighbors - in spite of crime, drugs, crushing poverty and urban blight - gathered on a Sunday to pray? I tell you living saints that held back the wrath of God Himself gathered in that congregation and I am ill prepared to implicitly mock them.
Watch the posted video 100X over, judge those people all you like and make comments about the Catholic Church and inferences about those of us who stand firm in unia.
I hope all of you who are judging are just that holy and remember this simple sinner in your prayers. I at least know that I need them.
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